RE: Alfa Romeo vs BMW M vs Mercedes-AMG: PH Video
Saturday 8th July 2017
Quadrifoglio Verde. Two words that have been associated with racing Alfas since the 1923 Targa Florio when Ugo Sivocci, a dear friend of Enzo Ferrari, decided to add the four-leafed clover to his race car to give him some much-needed luck.
Alfa Romeo vs BMW M vs Mercedes-AMG: PH Video
Can the Italian super saloon beat the Germans at their own game?
Fast forward 94 years and that symbol once again adorns the flank of Alfa's latest creation, the Giulia QV. It'll need more than just luck if it wants to come out on top here though, as PH pits it against two cars that, till now at least, have been the be all and end all of super saloons. The BMW M3 Competition Pack and Mercedes-AMG's C63 S.
The C63 may have a great big V8, but it weights in as the heaviest of the trio, whilst the M3 has the least power, but holds 25 years worth of development over the Giulia. So, can the Alfa show up these two heavyweights at Anglesey? Watch the video here to find out!
Discussion
I would still take the Alfa even if it was playing silly buggers on the day! Even though I've owned BMW's all my life and I am something of a big fan, the M3 would be the last pick for me. Which just goes to show how something about this generation of M3/4 has never been quite there, for me at least.
My m4 comp feels real world faster on the road and more accessible than my 991gt3 - to say it's "not quite there" is confusing to me! Sure it doesn't have the steering of the Porsche but then neither do the other two! M3/4 performance is scintillating and BMW have the weight so well under control nowadays. All three of these cars are fantastic but for me the BMW wins because mine is a manual gearbox model and you can't get that in the other two in the UK. I don't care that it's slower on paper - it's just wonderful to drive in every situation and for every occasion.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 8th July 11:40
I agree I've had the last 3 generations of the M3 and the latest one is the best in my opinion, doesn't have that glorious V8 of the e92 but wins hands down in all the other areas and beats the e46 hollow as a dual purpose machine. (both the e46 and e92 are cracking cars before anyone starts)
It's a tremendous car, some of the comments regarding it do make me laugh.
Would be interested to try the competition pack. I’ve driven the standard M3 and found it to be an odd mix of good ingredients with some rather odd calibration. The power delivery seems completely at odds with the chassis. It delivers nothing and then, all of a sudden, everything which coincides perfectly with corners in motorway on ramps! Even with stability control on, it results in some rather alarming snap oversteer! This, added to the fact the electronic diff seemed to decide to lock and unlock at all the wrong moments makes me wonder how I haven’t seen more sitting in hedges backwards!
I had one of the first M3's so a non CP car & I really didn't like it I couldn't gel with it, don't get me wrong when you were on it it was fantastic but the rest of the time it wasn't a better place to be than the CLK63 I was planning to replace it with.
It was a gorgeous thing to look at but it just didn't work for me so I sold it, considering that the CP came out so soon & semi rectified some of the issues tells me the standard car is slightly flawed the engine note was another thing I really didn't like (the fake noise was disconnected) an Akro exhaust helped but never really drew me in.
I'd take the Alfa then Merc & for me the BMW would be last.
It was a gorgeous thing to look at but it just didn't work for me so I sold it, considering that the CP came out so soon & semi rectified some of the issues tells me the standard car is slightly flawed the engine note was another thing I really didn't like (the fake noise was disconnected) an Akro exhaust helped but never really drew me in.
I'd take the Alfa then Merc & for me the BMW would be last.
WOW! It looks like Pistonheads is being sponsored by the German automotive manufacturing industry. What a lame review. Every journalist on the planet reviewed the Giulia QV and found it to beat both German cars on almost everything and you have a software glitch and carry on reviewing and posting the video propaganda? It looks like a revenge video. Where is the drag race? 0-60 times? Stopping times? Looks, aerodynamics? You drove behind the two rivals for the entire video. It's not a proper review sorry. A real review would have said: "The Alfa had a computer issue once sorted (it needed the Alfa ECU updated) it was the fastest around the track, 0-60 etc.etc..."
Also, and I might be wrong, wasn't that a pre-production car? The car gives you a warning light almost from the start of the test and you keep trashing it?Why? Were you hoping that the car would come to a standstill during the recording? It sounds to me as if someone can't stand the fact that both German cars have been superseded by a better one. It the meantime I have unsubscribed from your youtube channel...poor "journalism".
Also, and I might be wrong, wasn't that a pre-production car? The car gives you a warning light almost from the start of the test and you keep trashing it?Why? Were you hoping that the car would come to a standstill during the recording? It sounds to me as if someone can't stand the fact that both German cars have been superseded by a better one. It the meantime I have unsubscribed from your youtube channel...poor "journalism".
Julian Thompson said:
My m4 comp feels real world faster on the road and more accessible than my 991gt3 - to say it's "not quite there" is confusing to me! Sure it doesn't have the steering of the Porsche but then neither do the other two! M3/4 performance is scintillating and BMW have the weight so well under control nowadays. All three of these cars are fantastic but for me the BMW wins because mine is a manual gearbox model and you can't get that in the other two in the UK. I don't care that it's slower on paper - it's just wonderful to drive in every situation and for every occasion.
Practically a post a month for 13 years!Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 8th July 11:40
Nice going
Saw this and was really looking forward to the video review. Usually PH is pretty good, but this is poor in my opinion.
No real world tests to back up the figures.
No review about the interior and other things that would come into play during long term ownership.
Drivers didn't swap cars for impartial feedback.
Just 11 mins of cars driving round the track with their respective drivers repeating what they've already said.
As others, I would probably still take the Alfa
No real world tests to back up the figures.
No review about the interior and other things that would come into play during long term ownership.
Drivers didn't swap cars for impartial feedback.
Just 11 mins of cars driving round the track with their respective drivers repeating what they've already said.
As others, I would probably still take the Alfa
Anglesey is a gorgeous circuit, with Cadwell the prettiest in the country. It is a shame this is such an old video, but thats life. I bought an Alfa Giulia quadrifoglio and after 2,750 miles it has proven to be brilliant in every way, and just gets better! I didn't look at the M3 or the Merc as they just didn't interest me. So don't be put off, go and drive one. Oh yes, the dealer I dealt with has been excellent ( Meridien Milano, Portsmouth).
I think the Comp pack is only a bit better than standard but (I had a standard M4 previously and loved that too) genuinely I can't understand the criticism of the chassis even in the normal m4 - I mean it has over 400 horsepower and 600 odd nm of torque available from a very low rpm - of course there will be oversteer - and of course it'll be a bit snappy on those big tyres in the wet if you don't stay alert and treat it with respect! But the suggestion that it snap oversteers with the stability control on is totally at odds with my ownership of both M4's - with the car in out of the box stability control mode it's locked down totally and any hint of naughtiness has the brakes grabbing the opposite wheels and the engine power totally cut to stop inexperienced drivers making a cods of it. Its very safe and you'd need to be doing something incredibly daft to have a problem with the car set up like that.
With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.
I know I'm going to sound like an old fart (well I guess I am now!) but the addition of all these stability controls are a mixed blessing because it seems to me that there is a generation of drivers who are afraid to switch them off and learn how the car behaves - without a proper understanding of how the car moves about under load the driver will NEVER feel confident to exploit the chassis. I think this problem isn't helped by throwaway lines from the motoring journalists like "Let's be brave and switch off the ESP for a lap" which make the general public think that the instant the switch is flicked they will begin to gyrate uncontrollably!
The other thing I notice is that lots of people love to poke fun at cars based on what journalists have said - lots of these people haven't lived with these cars before they sound off and most of them who say they "have driven" the cars probably haven't done more than a 10 minute test drive with the car salesman.
With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.
I know I'm going to sound like an old fart (well I guess I am now!) but the addition of all these stability controls are a mixed blessing because it seems to me that there is a generation of drivers who are afraid to switch them off and learn how the car behaves - without a proper understanding of how the car moves about under load the driver will NEVER feel confident to exploit the chassis. I think this problem isn't helped by throwaway lines from the motoring journalists like "Let's be brave and switch off the ESP for a lap" which make the general public think that the instant the switch is flicked they will begin to gyrate uncontrollably!
The other thing I notice is that lots of people love to poke fun at cars based on what journalists have said - lots of these people haven't lived with these cars before they sound off and most of them who say they "have driven" the cars probably haven't done more than a 10 minute test drive with the car salesman.
Julian Thompson said:
The other thing I notice is that lots of people love to poke fun at cars based on what journalists have said - lots of these people haven't lived with these cars before they sound off and most of them who say they "have driven" the cars probably haven't done more than a 10 minute test drive with the car salesman.
This x1000Julian Thompson said:
I think the Comp pack is only a bit better than standard but (I had a standard M4 previously and loved that too) genuinely I can't understand the criticism of the chassis even in the normal m4 - I mean it has over 400 horsepower and 600 odd nm of torque available from a very low rpm - of course there will be oversteer - and of course it'll be a bit snappy on those big tyres in the wet if you don't stay alert and treat it with respect! But the suggestion that it snap oversteers with the stability control on is totally at odds with my ownership of both M4's - with the car in out of the box stability control mode it's locked down totally and any hint of naughtiness has the brakes grabbing the opposite wheels and the engine power totally cut to stop inexperienced drivers making a cods of it. Its very safe and you'd need to be doing something incredibly daft to have a problem with the car set up like that.
With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.
That corresponds exactly to my experience of that car on track and on the road - such a big/heavy thing has no right to be that good and versatile and get away with it in both environments, turn in is particularly impressive - truly amazing what it can do, but probably in the right hands only where smoothness of inputs (and especially throttle modulation) will be rewarded.With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.
nickfrog said:
Julian Thompson said:
I think the Comp pack is only a bit better than standard but (I had a standard M4 previously and loved that too) genuinely I can't understand the criticism of the chassis even in the normal m4 - I mean it has over 400 horsepower and 600 odd nm of torque available from a very low rpm - of course there will be oversteer - and of course it'll be a bit snappy on those big tyres in the wet if you don't stay alert and treat it with respect! But the suggestion that it snap oversteers with the stability control on is totally at odds with my ownership of both M4's - with the car in out of the box stability control mode it's locked down totally and any hint of naughtiness has the brakes grabbing the opposite wheels and the engine power totally cut to stop inexperienced drivers making a cods of it. Its very safe and you'd need to be doing something incredibly daft to have a problem with the car set up like that.
With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.
That corresponds exactly to my experience of that car on track and on the road - such a big/heavy thing has no right to be that good and versatile and get away with it in both environments, turn in is particularly impressive - truly amazing what it can do, but probably in the right hands only where smoothness of inputs (and especially throttle modulation) will be rewarded.With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.
It feels like all the suspension and subframe bushes are way too soft for this type of car which is most noticeable in the fact that the steering feels so incredibly vague around centre.
And as for the stability control....the interventions are so incredibly late and harsh. It feels like BMW just copied the stability calibration from a 320i and did zero calibration. My friend had to put in 90deg of opposite lock on, in a straight line when it spun the wheels up on the motorway changing from 3rd to 4th!
Working in Dynamics for another OEM, it annoys me as it feels like such a cynical exploitation of the M brand. It’s like they’ve created the right styling, power and performance figures and then just done zero development or tuning. When my friend had an M3, the stability control went offline 3 times when driving fast, the brake pedal went to the floor after 10mins of hard road driving and the gearbox stuck itself in 3rd gear until we reset the ignition. Stuff you expect on an early development car, but not one 3 years into its production....
The M2 on the other hand feels totally different. They clearly can do it when they try, but it seems like they’ve taken their foot off the throttle in recent years. I heard a rumour most of the original M team got moved into the i division to do the i3 and i8. Having driven both of those, I’d say there’s probably a lot of truth in that. They seem to deliver absolutely on their briefs, much like the old V8 M5 and E46 M3 did...
DeltaEvo2 said:
WOW! It looks like Pistonheads is being sponsored by the German automotive manufacturing industry. What a lame review. Every journalist on the planet reviewed the Giulia QV and found it to beat both German cars on almost everything and you have a software glitch and carry on reviewing and posting the video propaganda? It looks like a revenge video. Where is the drag race? 0-60 times? Stopping times? Looks, aerodynamics? You drove behind the two rivals for the entire video. It's not a proper review sorry. A real review would have said: "The Alfa had a computer issue once sorted (it needed the Alfa ECU updated) it was the fastest around the track, 0-60 etc.etc..."
Also, and I might be wrong, wasn't that a pre-production car? The car gives you a warning light almost from the start of the test and you keep trashing it?Why? Were you hoping that the car would come to a standstill during the recording? It sounds to me as if someone can't stand the fact that both German cars have been superseded by a better one. It the meantime I have unsubscribed from your youtube channel...poor "journalism".
Agreed, PH definitely seems on some sort of mission to keep the Giulia (whichever model) and the Abarth 124 'in their place' while appearing to praise them. The German sponsors must be leaning heavily!Also, and I might be wrong, wasn't that a pre-production car? The car gives you a warning light almost from the start of the test and you keep trashing it?Why? Were you hoping that the car would come to a standstill during the recording? It sounds to me as if someone can't stand the fact that both German cars have been superseded by a better one. It the meantime I have unsubscribed from your youtube channel...poor "journalism".
Continuing to rag the PPM Giulia with a 'check engine' light on is stupid, like you were determined to see it break and therefore provide you with some cheap shot about Alfa quality related to cars from eons ago.
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