Robert Peston job ad - whites need not apply

[otolith]

Rovinghawk said:

MOWOs wouldn't even be allowed to exist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_Classic...

Though perhaps they would not get away with calling it that.

[Rovinghawk]

Here's an example of prejudice being ok in one direction but not in the other:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4121584/Ol...

So what if it's Daily Mail? It still happened

[TTwiggy]

Rovinghawk said:

TTwiggy said:

You do understand what MOBO stands for yes?

Yes. The whole precept is wrong.

TTwiggy said:

And that winners can be (and have been) white?

That still doesn't change the fact that the entire idea is racist and if there was such a thing as MOWO there'd be outrage.

'Music of Black Origin'.

Would you like to make a list of 'Music of White Origin'?

I'll start it off for you:

Classical music.

[TTwiggy]

Rovinghawk said:

Here's an example of prejudice being ok in one direction but not in the other:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4121584/Ol...

So what if it's Daily Mail? It still happened

Your deflection from the point of this thread is impressive, though entirely transparent.

[Rovinghawk]

TTwiggy said:

Your deflection from the point of this thread is impressive, though entirely transparent.

The point of this thread is that apparently jobs for non-whites is fine, jobs for whiites is wrong.

I'd say it fits quite well.

[otolith]

TTwiggy said:

otolith said:

TTwiggy said:

98elise said:

Medicine?

At what level of medicine?

Some numbers here.

http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/Ethnic_diver...

So not that diverse at senior level (South Asian excepted) and certainly not under-represented by the white demographic.

The white demographic is generally under-represented to some extent with the exception of executive directors.

I have no problem with this. If disproportionately few white men are training to be doctors despite all their “privilege”, that’s fine. You can get equality of opportunity, but you can’t mitigate for some communities valuing certain careers more highly than others.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC51664...

[TTwiggy]

Rovinghawk said:

TTwiggy said:

Your deflection from the point of this thread is impressive, though entirely transparent.

The point of this thread is that apparently jobs for non-whites is fine, jobs for whiites is wrong.

I'd say it fits quite well.

It's not 'jobs for non-whites' though is it? And you know this. It's a way for non-whites to cut through a lot of prejudice in order to get a shot at a job that otherwise they'd have no chance of. And you know this too. You seem intent on making this into something it isn't, and the lazy reference to the MOBOs is frankly pathetic.

[TTwiggy]

otolith said:

The white demographic is generally under-represented to some extent with the exception of executive directors.

I have no problem with this. If disproportionately few white men are training to be doctors despite all their “privilege”, that’s fine. You can get equality of opportunity, but you can’t mitigate for some communities valuing certain careers more highly than others.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC51664...

Absolutely, and I agree entirely.

[dromong]

TTwiggy said:

'Music of Black Origin'.

Would you like to make a list of 'Music of White Origin'?

I'll start it off for you:

Classical music.

Or we could just lighten up a bit and do a 'Music of Barry White Origin' :

You're the first, my last, my everything.
Cant get enough of your love Babe.

[schmunk]

Rovinghawk said:

TTwiggy said:

Also 'MOBOs' is not an industry.

MOWOs wouldn't even be allowed to exist.

That's presumably to make things 'fair'.

Do I have a treat for you...!

http://www.cmaworld.com/cma-awards/



Ooh! Ooh! Look! A couple of token black faces, right in the middle, to show off the 'diversity' of the country music industry.


But, then again, let's have a look at the 2017 nominees and winners...

http://www.cmaworld.com/cma-awards/2017winners/

Oh dear...

Edited by schmunk on Friday 24th November 12:06

[TTwiggy]

schmunk said:

Rovinghawk said:

TTwiggy said:

Also 'MOBOs' is not an industry.

MOWOs wouldn't even be allowed to exist.

That's presumably to make things 'fair'.

Do I have a treat for you...!

http://www.cmaworld.com/cma-awards/



Ooh! Ooh! Look! A couple of token black faces, right in the middle, to show off the 'diversity' of the country music industry.

And certainly no irony that Country & Western is derived from Blues and Cajun roots, and therefore is a MOBO genre.

[stitched]

TTwiggy said:

Rovinghawk said:

TTwiggy said:

Your deflection from the point of this thread is impressive, though entirely transparent.

The point of this thread is that apparently jobs for non-whites is fine, jobs for whiites is wrong.

I'd say it fits quite well.

It's not 'jobs for non-whites' though is it? And you know this. It's a way for non-whites to cut through a lot of prejudice in order to get a shot at a job that otherwise they'd have no chance of. And you know this too. You seem intent on making this into something it isn't, and the lazy reference to the MOBOs is frankly pathetic.

I and my son are citizens of the U.K.
Regardless of where our ancestors are from I strongly believe we should have an equal chance, based on race or gender, of acquiring a position.
If you think otherwise then you are demonstrably racist or sexist.

[TTwiggy]

stitched said:

I and my son are citizens of the U.K.
Regardless of where our ancestors are from I strongly believe we should have an equal chance, based on race or gender, of acquiring a position.
If you think otherwise then you are demonstrably racist or sexist.

Currently, many people who share the same citizenship as you and your son (though quite why you feel the need to bring your progeny into this I don't know) do not have an equal opportunity to gain employment in certain industries. So, until they do, there will have to be ways of levelling the playing field.

[Countdown]

stitched said:

I and my son are citizens of the U.K.
Regardless of where our ancestors are from I strongly believe we should have an equal chance, based on race or gender, of acquiring a position.
If you think otherwise then you are demonstrably racist or sexist.

If there is evidence to demonstrate that you don't have an equal chance would it be fair to take steps to correct your disadvantage?

[stitched]

Countdown said:

Rovinghawk said:

Countdown said:

Is there any reason why a person with an Asian or black sounding name with the same CV as a person with a white name has less of a chance of getting selected for interview?

My cousin has the surname Singhal- she's never had a problem getting any job she's ever gone for. Ditto a university friend whose surname is Desgupta.

Maybe this type of discrimination doesn't happen as often as you'd like to think.

Good for your cousin. It may be that they were significantly more qualified than the other applicants. Or they applied for jobs where there weren't many other applicants. Or they applied for jobs where the recruiters didn't discriminate. Or the companies they applied to had screening processes which removed or minimised the chances of discrimination. However, sad to say, your cousin's experience isn't representative of the wider picture.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/17/jobs...

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/02/23...

https://fullfact.org/economy/job-applicants-ethnic...

I haven't had the pleasure of visiting the U.S.A. or Canada so will not enter a debate on how they deal with race.
In the UK some of us believe in equality, try it.
You might like it.
Then again some prefer a racial advantage. I would like to think our society has outgrown this prejudice and will continue to argue that all men/women should be treated as equals.

[TTwiggy]

stitched said:

I haven't had the pleasure of visiting the U.S.A. or Canada so will not enter a debate on how they deal with race.
In the UK some of us believe in equality, try it.
You might like it.
Then again some prefer a racial advantage. I would like to think our society has outgrown this prejudice and will continue to argue that all men/women should be treated as equals.

That's lovely. But it hasn't happened yet.

[Countdown]

stitched said:

I haven't had the pleasure of visiting the U.S.A. or Canada so will not enter a debate on how they deal with race.
In the UK some of us believe in equality, try it.
You might like it.
Then again some prefer a racial advantage. I would like to think our society has outgrown this prejudice and will continue to argue that all men/women should be treated as equals.

The problem is that, sadly, not everybody is like you. Some clearly [b[don't[/b] believe in equality. Others blithely assume that equality exists for all because they personally haven't experienced otherwise.

I agree that everybody should be treated as equals, and where this doesn't happen action should be taken to make it a level playing field.

[stitched]

Countdown said:

The problem is that, sadly, not everybody is like you. Some clearly [b[don't[/b] believe in equality. Others blithely assume that equality exists for all because they personally haven't experienced otherwise.

I agree that everybody should be treated as equals, and where this doesn't happen action should be taken to make it a level playing field.

I have interviewed hundreds of people over the years, I have always selected people based on their skills, experience and how well they performed at interview.
The only time I fell foul of HR was when I refused to select someone based on race, I left the firm and moved on.
If you allow race to be an issue during selection, for whatever reason you are a racist.
This is a fact, so why should billybob be castigated for wandering around in a pillowcase requesting people of a race different from him be removed to their ancestral home?
Racism is not dependent on the colour of your skin and should never be legitimised IMO.

[Countdown]

stitched said:

Countdown said:

The problem is that, sadly, not everybody is like you. Some clearly [b[don't[/b] believe in equality. Others blithely assume that equality exists for all because they personally haven't experienced otherwise.

I agree that everybody should be treated as equals, and where this doesn't happen action should be taken to make it a level playing field.

I have interviewed hundreds of people over the years, I have always selected people based on their skills, experience and how well they performed at interview.
The only time I fell foul of HR was when I refused to select someone based on race, I left the firm and moved on.
If you allow race to be an issue during selection, for whatever reason you are a racist.
This is a fact, so why should billybob be castigated for wandering around in a pillowcase requesting people of a race different from him be removed to their ancestral home?
Racism is not dependent on the colour of your skin and should never be legitimised IMO.

So have I. I have never had a situation where HR have tried to force me to appoint somebody because they were black, white, or blue. They simply couldn't because the recruitment policies and procedures are clearly defined/written and all Managers receive training on how to follow them. It is simply too risky (especially in a national or multi-national organisation) to have a Manager who thinks he or she knows better and end up exposing the organisation to litigation claims.

Organisations (decent ones at least) do various things to ensure that it's a level playing field. A level playing field doesn't mean that any particular group is discriminated against.

[Rovinghawk]

Countdown said:

A level playing field doesn't mean that any particular group is discriminated against.

So are you for or against the original advert?

You say you want the playing field levelled ("positive" discrimination?) yet you don't want discrimination.