Violent crime up 18% in England and Wales

[Digga]

Pretty sobering statistics which, along with various threads on here, like the abuse gangs and (more recently) scooter thefts paint a disturbing picture:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40665733

[anonymous-user]

Nope
Someone wil pop up to tell you its all ok
put it into context
Its down to the cuts
its not as bad as it was in the Victorian era
etc

Then someone will pop up and suggest police resources are being wasted on other stuff
That will be an auto alert to the resident all police stuff ever is brill and we cant ever not ever be criticised types

Then someone will say its perception
Cue lots of graphs
etc
etc

[Digga]

Yep, statistics and bullst.

BBC said:

But the Crime Survey of England and Wales, based on people's experiences of crime, showed a 7% drop.

Read the article if you want to make sense of that one!

Ordinary people's perceptions are, IMHO< pretty key to the reality, and not the massaged and filleted 'reports' which, as we all know, are vigorously politicised by both the police and government to suit their own needs at the time. People, rightly, feel the law is neither effective nor efficient with regard to crimes that blight most of us; theft and burglary being key. The separate issue of sexual assaults seems, to any rational observer, to be one where recent, high profile cases prove there has been a chronic breakdown in the law.

[Regiment]

techiedave said:

Nope
Someone wil pop up to tell you its all ok
put it into context
Its down to the cuts
its not as bad as it was in the Victorian era
etc

Then someone will pop up and suggest police resources are being wasted on other stuff
That will be an auto alert to the resident all police stuff ever is brill and we cant ever not ever be criticised types

Then someone will say its perception
Cue lots of graphs
etc
etc

You forgot the obvious, the "it's all the people who talk a bit foreign" doing it all. Sobering.

[Digga]

Regiment said:

You forgot the obvious, the "it's all the people who talk a bit foreign" doing it all. Sobering.

To an extent, it matters not who's "doing it", but rather that it is, clearly, sufficiently easy to so do that the figures have burgeoned so rapidly.

[Gandahar]

Digga said:

Regiment said:

You forgot the obvious, the "it's all the people who talk a bit foreign" doing it all. Sobering.

To an extent, it matters not who's "doing it", but rather that it is, clearly, sufficiently easy to so do that the figures have burgeoned so rapidly.

Is it actually the people who talk foreign actually doing it? Or are they all washing cars rather than driving around on mopeds after seeing some video of people doing it elsewhere and getting an idea?

Our local Tesco's have these fold out chairs in their lobby and I saw someone "helping themselves" to 3 and just walking out this morning. Chose 7.30am as no security guard and not too many people around. I assume Tesco's get them so cheap they can just write off loads of them stolen.

Problem is that is encouraging people.

Until we actually get some backbone on stopping crime it will not happen.

I'D RATHER HAVE MORE POLICE OFFICERS EVERYWHERE THAN TWO AIRCRAFT CARRIERS TRYING TO SAY TO OTHER COUNTRIES WE ARE STILL GLORIOUS.

It would be better for the UK. We need to get more like the US, be more insular, think about home rather abroad, especially as Brexit is now here

[EliseNick]

Digga said:

Pretty sobering statistics which, along with various threads on here, like the abuse gangs and (more recently) scooter thefts paint a disturbing picture:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40665733

The matter is discussed in the first five minutes of this edition of More or Less, from Radio 4;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0522q1b

The conclusion is that, as well as things like Hillsborough muddying the waters, as mentioned in the article, the differences in the nature of recording offences over the years means that such statistics should be treated cautiously. Summary - "Crime has fallen dramatically over the last twenty-five years, but over the last few years there are signs that we may be reaching a bit of a plateau."

[anonymous-user]

Reading some of the other threads such as the travellers thread I think what irks people is the attitudes.
It seems to some people that if you take the piss you just get away with it.

I was sorely tempted to start another thread about the Preston New Road near Blackpool issue. It truly has to be seen to be believed and I have I have seen it with my own eyes. For anyone without a clue about what I am talking about this is a main road into Blackpool. A company are drilling for shale gas etc (fracking). Because of how its been handled ie planning permission declined at local level and over wrote at national level it had become a focal point for anti fracking activism.
Initially this was a case of roadside people with banners and people driving past either ignoring or pipping horns in support. Then it slowly escalated into slow walking. Now its just total bloody anarchy with endless road closures either full or partial whilst the more radical activists chain themselves up in the middle of the road.
The whole road can be brought to a standstill within a few minutes.You might think there is alack of police but that's way off the mark. there are vanloads of Police everywhere.
Yet all the police seem to do is to stand around whilst ever more aggressive types goad them and drivers caught up in it.

Along that stretch of road its not the Police in charge. Its the demonstrators. I had an interesting chat with a policeman friend of my brother last week. He said he feels it paints them (the Police) in a very very bad light.

[Cold]

BBC article said:

There were 723 homicides in the past year - made up of murders, manslaughter and infanticide cases.
The official figure included the 96 Hillsborough deaths for the first time, following the verdict at the end of the inquest in April 2016 that the victims had been unlawfully killed 27 years earlier.

[Digga]

Gandahar said:

Is it actually the people who talk foreign actually doing it?

I don't know, I don't particularly care either. Whoever is doing it ought to feel the full force of the law and, if and when they are caught, need to be put away so they cannot re-offend and blight yet more lives.

techiedave said:

Reading some of the other threads such as the travellers thread I think what irks people is the attitudes.
It seems to some people that if you take the piss you just get away with it.

Also, the attitude of the criminal classes that they have nothing to fear from the law.

As an example of how brazen and fearless thieves are, a friend had a new Audi RS6 - the C6 model with the lovely, loopy V10 engine - and within a year or so of having it had someone try three times on the same night to bust their (fortunately, extremely good quality) front door in to get the keys. This despite the fact the police actually attended the scene after the initial attempt, around 1am.

[superkartracer]

Regiment said:

techiedave said:

Nope
Someone wil pop up to tell you its all ok
put it into context
Its down to the cuts
its not as bad as it was in the Victorian era
etc

Then someone will pop up and suggest police resources are being wasted on other stuff
That will be an auto alert to the resident all police stuff ever is brill and we cant ever not ever be criticised types

Then someone will say its perception
Cue lots of graphs
etc
etc

You forgot the obvious, the "it's all the people who talk a bit foreign" doing it all. Sobering.

In this nice Warwickshire village we have these people parking a van on the drive and walking into gardens removing items , when confronted they claim to not speak English , bless them .

[dandarez]

Digga said:

Gandahar said:

Is it actually the people who talk foreign actually doing it?

I don't know, I don't particularly care either. Whoever is doing it ought to feel the full force of the law and, if and when they are caught, need to be put away so they cannot re-offend and blight yet more lives.

techiedave said:

Reading some of the other threads such as the travellers thread I think what irks people is the attitudes.
It seems to some people that if you take the piss you just get away with it.

Also, the attitude of the criminal classes that they have nothing to fear from the law.

As an example of how brazen and fearless thieves are, a friend had a new Audi RS6 - the C6 model with the lovely, loopy V10 engine - and within a year or so of having it had someone try three times on the same night to bust their (fortunately, extremely good quality) front door in to get the keys. This despite the fact the police actually attended the scene after the initial attempt, around 1am.

How low are we sinking? Crime?
Just become a crim. Serve a bit of time. Tell your story. Book publishers line up. TV prog wants you to tell your story (surely it cannot be the Beeb, hope not). It's all wonderful. Except for the majority of hard working Jo Bloggs and the rest. You suffer. You buy a nice new Audi and some scums tries to break in, can't, so keys the paintwork (been there, nobody is interested NOBODY! So pay up for repairs - paintwork is never 'cheap'!). Life goes on. Things get worse. We are told it's not worse. We all argue the toss. But in reality, no fker cares.

Oh that bit about crime, needing a nice new Audi - don't buy one yourself, only a fool does that - do it this way, it obviously pays. Very well by the look of it! Yeah, it's the Wail, but it's the only one I can find with pics of her new wheels.

What an indictment for today's generation, eh? Glad I'm not part of it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4713882/...

[anonymous-user]

Recorded crime by the police is different from the CSEW.

The police have, to put it generously, not always recorded crime as well as they should have. Bigends is an expert in this area.

If you want to look at trends and by able to make more reliable comparisons the then the CSEW is, overall, better.

[Digga]

La Liga said:

Recorded crime by the police is different from the CSEW.

The police have, to put it generously, not always recorded crime as well as they should have. Bigends is an expert in this area.

If you want to look at trends and by able to make more reliable comparisons the then the CSEW is, overall, better.

To be fair though, you have to admit the figures are like a football though - kicked around by both sides and used, manipulated and massaged to promote whatever agenda suits the proponent.

Probably more relevant that the dubious numbers are the specifics of cases and the experiences of both the public and police alike, with regard to how prolific recidivism and career crime is and also how little deterrent current sentencing provides.

[anonymous-user]

Digga said:

La Liga said:

Recorded crime by the police is different from the CSEW.

The police have, to put it generously, not always recorded crime as well as they should have. Bigends is an expert in this area.

If you want to look at trends and by able to make more reliable comparisons the then the CSEW is, overall, better.

To be fair though, you have to admit the figures are like a football though - kicked around by both sides and used, manipulated and massaged to promote whatever agenda suits the proponent.

Probably more relevant that the dubious numbers are the specifics of cases and the experiences of both the public and police alike, with regard to how prolific recidivism and career crime is and also how little deterrent current sentencing provides.

Yes, they're both used as a political football and part of previous police 'creativity' with figures was down to the government making recorded crime central to police performance.

Thankfully that's gone.

I do stand behind the CSEW data as being a reliable indication of crime and thus allowing comparisons to different points in time. I've never seen anything which indicates it has been manipulated etc.

Info about it here: http://www.crimesurvey.co.uk/AboutTheSurvey.html

[Digga]

La Liga said:

I do stand behind the CSEW data as being a reliable indication of crime and thus allowing comparisons to different points in time. I've never seen anything which indicates it has been manipulated etc.

I doubt whether the raw data is manipulated, but what does tend to happen is entities quote selectively, in order to support whatever position they are arguing at any given time; higher "crime's worse" or "police are failing" or "government cuts are impacting the police" etc. etc.

Moreover, given the relatively small sample size, I definitely would question how representative it is.

[Derek Smith]

techiedave said:

I was sorely tempted to start another thread about the Preston New Road near Blackpool issue.

Along that stretch of road its not the Police in charge. Its the demonstrators. I had an interesting chat with a policeman friend of my brother last week. He said he feels it paints them (the Police) in a very very bad light.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/2...

A large demonstration, such as this, is all but impossible for the police to force compliance. It’s been tried at many such situations and as the demonstrators have become more sophisticated in their tactics, so have the police.

Alternatives have been tried, alternatives have failed.

[Derek Smith]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The way the juveniles were dealt with would have been governed by national guidelines.

As for the damage to your house: twenty years ago the police were required to exercise a form of triage. It was galling for the police officers concerned, but there were few options. I doubt there are any left now. When some forces are unable to attend, let alone investigate, all domestic burglaries, a case where the victim is recompensed, albeit by theIr own due diligence,.

The police are now working harder than they ever have. It is impossible to fill some vacancies. There are direct entrants to CID and senior ranks.

There is much to criticise in the way England and Wales are policed, but being unable to investigate matters where monetary loss to victims is compensated is not a reason for refusing support for the officers.

[anonymous-user]

Derek Smith said:

techiedave said:

I was sorely tempted to start another thread about the Preston New Road near Blackpool issue.

Along that stretch of road its not the Police in charge. Its the demonstrators. I had an interesting chat with a policeman friend of my brother last week. He said he feels it paints them (the Police) in a very very bad light.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/2...

A large demonstration, such as this, is all but impossible for the police to force compliance. It’s been tried at many such situations and as the demonstrators have become more sophisticated in their tactics, so have the police.

Alternatives have been tried, alternatives have failed.

Well Having seen it at first hand its pretty clear that the police seem to be doing nothing other than observing. its total farce and is causing increasing anger towards the police their. The demonstrators clearly are in control and your point might well be valid except that its not like a football crowd Mr Smith Its actually not that many demonstrators certainly not on the 2 days I have been caught up in it.
In Poulton there are a lot of Blackpool business owners who are clearly royally pissed off with the Polices handling of the dispute

[Derek Smith]

techiedave said:

Well Having seen it at first hand its pretty clear that the police seem to be doing nothing other than observing. its total farce and is causing increasing anger towards the police their. The demonstrators clearly are in control and your point might well be valid except that its not like a football crowd Mr Smith Its actually not that many demonstrators certainly not on the 2 days I have been caught up in it.
In Poulton there are a lot of Blackpool business owners who are clearly royally pissed off with the Polices handling of the dispute

There was a situation in Sussex where a low level demonstration was policed fairly heavily. The tactics came in for criticism, not without cause, from both 'sides'. Some demonstrators were 'famous', at least that was their opinion, and this upped the ante. The internet helped their cause and so the numbers went up and up due to what was classed as police brutality. I wasn't brutal to anyone by the way.

In the end the police were unable to control the crowds without outside help. Eventually even that wasn't enough. The CC got a lot of criticism, but for what was not clear.

There was an argument that 'we' should have gone in with a lighter touch and also one that more forceful response would have been successful.

My feeling is that whatever we did, the sophisticated and well funded demonstrators would have been able to escalate the matter so that the result would have been the same.

I've been on demonstrations where things have gone well because most police remained in their carriers and the mood was quite jolly. I've been on others where I've been held in a carrier despite it being obvious from was on the air that we were needed. Indeed, we were called only after two polices officers were cornered and being beaten and kicked.

The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I can't speak for this incident other than to say that the Home Office will have input with regards tactics.