What do you understand by the concept of Democracy?

What do you understand by the concept of Democracy?

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Coolbanana

Original Poster:

4,383 posts

199 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Just wondering...in-between dips in my pool to get some relief from the heat here in Portugal...the Brexit Threads seem to have highlighted certain splits in the understanding of what ‘Democracy’ means to different people.

A famous (infamous? biggrin) Referendum concerning ongoing participation in the EU Project was held and a result was announced; those that wanted to Leave (Brexiteers) won by a narrow majority. Yay for them! smile

Those that wanted to Remain (Remainers) lost. However, many wanted to continue campaigning for a different result. “Foul!” cried the Brexiteers, who claimed Democracy had won the day and no Second Referendum should be even considered.
Lately, the Brexiteers have added to their Democracy claim that Remainers should ‘accept the result and get behind Brexit and support it wholeheartedly; make a go of it!’

Now, it is perfectly natural for those who win something to want to keep it; that’s normal.

But are those cries of “Foul!” not trying to push aside the Democratic rights of those that lost?

Keeping with the Brexit Vote, some Brexiteers have been campaigning from the very beginning of EU Membership to bring an end to continued membership; for 40 years even. Finally, they can crow about a sensational, if largely unexpected Victory.

But how is that celebrated by Brexiteers as being different to those who chose to Remain now wanting to get back into the EU and are starting to campaign for that now? How is the Brexiteers campaigning previously democratic but Remainers wanting to do the same undemocratic now?
The question of Remainers ‘getting behind Brexit’ is very much a personal one. Surely any Remainer who feels strongly about getting the UK back in the EU has a Democratic right to campaign for such and NOT get behind something that they do not want and do not believe is in the best interests of the Country in the long term?***

How is this any different from more usual Politics? Now that the Conservatives are in power should all other Parties resign and everyone ‘get behind’ the Conservatives because ‘they won’? Or are Campaigns already being discussed to unseat the Tories at the next election? Who says we cannot campaign to get back into the EU - or try not to leave at all - already? Is there a legal time limit on this?

Membership of the EU is no less emotional and personal as any decision that affects a Country as a whole economically and politically and living in a Democracy provides for the right of each individual to desire and try to effect a change in the direction that they want the majority to go in.

That is my understanding of Democracy in its simplest form.

What is yours? smile


  • *I appreciate that some Brexiteers will feel that no less than a 100% effort from all may undermine the end result and that it is in ‘the best interests of the Country to now concede and support’ but that is hypocritical and only serves to attempt to enforce a position against the Will of another by coercion.
I read some Brexiteers see a period of hardship as a price worth paying...so they should not be surprised if Remainers see the same is 'worth it' while they campaign to get the UK back into the EU.

Remainers will also say that if Brexiteers have relied upon their support for Brexit to work then they shouldn’t have voted to Leave and the sooner we are back in the EU the better.


bitchstewie

50,767 posts

209 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Democracy may mean you lost (if it's something as binary as a vote) but it doesn't mean you stop trying IMO.

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

218 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Coolbanana said:
But are those cries of “Foul!” not trying to push aside the Democratic rights of those that lost?
Not really. The public was given a vote and the rules were clearly defined up front (i.e. a simple majority one way or the other - no matter how small, would decide the outcome).

Surely those people complaining about not getting the result they wanted are the ones who are behaving contrary to democracy - afterall they were quite happy to participate under the rules laid out when they thought the result was going to go the way they wanted.

If a simple 'one way or the other' outcome based on a small majority was unacceptable to them - why didn't these people complain before the vote was held and campaign to get the rules of the referendum changed?

Would they have been equally vocal against the the result had it gone the way they wanted - I suspect not.

We have seen it time and again. The leave campaign lost the Scottish referendum - and all they have done since is bh about the result, harped on about how they are "the 45%" and threatened to try and hold another one.

Labour supporters were the same in the 2010 and 2017 general elections, banging on about how x% of the country didn't vote Tory - yet were suspiciously silent when TB won the 2005 general election with only 35.2% of the popular vote - the smallest percentage in this countries history with almost fully 2/3rds of the electorate voting against him.


TTwiggy

11,500 posts

203 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Moonhawk said:
Surely those people complaining about not getting the result they wanted are the ones who are behaving contrary to democracy - afterall they were quite happy to participate under the rules laid out when they thought the result was going to go the way they wanted.
Quick point here - nobody ever asked me if I was happy with the rules.

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

218 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
TTwiggy said:
Quick point here - nobody ever asked me if I was happy with the rules.
You didn't have to be asked. The rules were laid out early on and you had the opportunity to review them before casting your vote. You could have initiated a campaign to have them changed should you have wished.

Had enough people followed your lead - they may have been.

Did you take this opportunity - did anyone?

Eric Mc

121,776 posts

264 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
The least important aspect of democracy is voting.

In order of importance (to me) -

freedom of speech
an independent legal system
freedom of the press
the right to vote
general tolerance of the other person's point of view

Camoradi

4,285 posts

255 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
True democracy is achieved when more than 50% of the population agree with me. smile

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
The least important aspect of democracy is voting.

In order of importance (to me) -

freedom of speech
an independent legal system
freedom of the press
the right to vote
general tolerance of the other person's point of view
Protection of minorities I'd add to that list.

It's a difficult one but for the purpose of the Brexit vote, it could be treated as a general election. Ie. there were winners and losers, now the winners have the next 5 years to make a go of it.

robemcdonald

8,716 posts

195 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
What we have in the uk is more akin to a popularity contest than a democracy.

Take the last general election most posters on the election thread had made their minds up who to vote for prior to any manifestos being launched.

People treat politics like a sport and vote for the team they support rather than what that team stands for. Which is actually a good thing because typically the winning team doesn't actually do what they said they were going to anyway.




handpaper

1,290 posts

202 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
John145 said:
Eric Mc said:
The least important aspect of democracy is voting.

In order of importance (to me) -

freedom of speech
an independent legal system
freedom of the press
the right to vote
general tolerance of the other person's point of view
Protection of minorities I'd add to that list.

It's a difficult one but for the purpose of the Brexit vote, it could be treated as a general election. Ie. there were winners and losers, now the winners have the next 5 years to make a go of it.
I'd add "an informed electorate". Not about "issues", those are to some extent fluid and often a matter of opinion anyway, but about the political system.
And "protection for minorities" is a policy, and a potentially controversial one at that. Nope.

Wobbegong

15,077 posts

168 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Depends on your point of view

EU democracy = repeated votes until you get the correct answer

Normal democracy = accept the result but still try to win others over with reason for the next vote (if your option doesn't win the majority)

If the Remain campaign had put as much effort into campaigning and reasoning BEFORE the vote I think they'd have won easily and Brexit would be forgotten.




Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
To my mind, the death knell of democracy is Universal Suffrage.

If everyone who contributes into a pot gets a vote on how it is spent, then reasonable democracy can continue.

Once you start letting people who don't contribute to the pot vote on how it gets spent, especially when you allow more to be spent than is put in the pot, how can democracy ultimately survive?

It's not a rapid process, maybe, but it seems we're well on the way there, and it's going to be a difficult stable door to lock even if the horse hasn't already bolted.

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
The least bad means of a people governing themselves.

Or, tyranny of the majority.

98elise

26,372 posts

160 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Democracy may mean you lost (if it's something as binary as a vote) but it doesn't mean you stop trying IMO.
What's the point of a second vote on the same question? If you had a second vote which changed the outcome, then the leavers would want a 3rd etc etc.

We voted..we got a result.

Einion Yrth

19,575 posts

243 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Leaving aside the inevitable, and rather boreworthy, hijacking of the question into yet another brexit thread. The question is interesting in its own right. Part one of my take is that "representational democracy" is no democracy at all, it's an elective oligarchy bought by bribes.

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
John145 said:
Protection of minorities I'd add to that list.

Indeed. Some people think 4 foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for lunch is democracy.

Democracy is a means of stopping one person from taking control and screwing up the country. With democracy, we all get to screw up the country.

Unless you live in a country which has Democratic Republic in the name. If you do, you don't get a vote. Or worse still, a country with People's Republic in the name, where you get shot for asking why you don't get to vote.

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
98elise said:
What's the point of a second vote on the same question? If you had a second vote which changed the outcome, then the leavers would want a 3rd etc etc.

We voted..we got a result.
By that logic, why have another general election? After all, we voted and got a result.

Could it possibly because circumstances change, and we might change our views based on those changes?

What if, 30 years from now, the EU has become a shining bastion of transparent democracy andis the last place on earth with access to clean water, fresh food and internet porn? Would you still be sat there thinking "we voted and got a result", or might you just think it was possibly worth reconsidering your intransigence?

bitchstewie

50,767 posts

209 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
98elise said:
What's the point of a second vote on the same question? If you had a second vote which changed the outcome, then the leavers would want a 3rd etc etc.

We voted..we got a result.
I was answering with more than Brexit in mind but Kermit Power has answered more eloquently than I could and summed it up nicely with "Could it possibly because circumstances change, and we might change our views based on those changes?".

amusingduck

9,396 posts

135 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
By that logic, why have another general election? After all, we voted and got a result.

Could it possibly because circumstances change, and we might change our views based on those changes?

What if, 30 years from now, the EU has become a shining bastion of transparent democracy andis the last place on earth with access to clean water, fresh food and internet porn? Would you still be sat there thinking "we voted and got a result", or might you just think it was possibly worth reconsidering your intransigence?
The vote was to decide whether we leave the EU.

Once we've left, there's absolutely no reason that we couldn't hold a vote to decide whether we re-enter the EU, if that is what the public wants.

Troubleatmill

10,210 posts

158 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
98elise said:
What's the point of a second vote on the same question? If you had a second vote which changed the outcome, then the leavers would want a 3rd etc etc.

We voted..we got a result.
By that logic, why have another general election? After all, we voted and got a result.

Could it possibly because circumstances change, and we might change our views based on those changes?

What if, 30 years from now, the EU has become a shining bastion of transparent democracy andis the last place on earth with access to clean water, fresh food and internet porn? Would you still be sat there thinking "we voted and got a result", or might you just think it was possibly worth reconsidering your intransigence?
Circumstances change by the hour.
What if 30 years from now the EU becomes a group of third world countries?
Greece, Spain etc - are well on that path.

If they could afford to get out of Dodge.... they would.
They are effectively trapped.

Can you accept the possibility - that the EU isn't working out so well for a fair chunk of its members?