New diesel and petrol cars banned from UK roads by 2030
Discussion
To sum up:
1. Petrol-only and diesel-only cars will not be able to be sold as new in the UK from 2040.
2. Hybrids (where part of the power train is non-petrol or non-diesel) will be able to be sold new in the UK after 2040.
3. Putting a solar roof on your house (if you have one) now may be a good idea if you can afford it.
4. Buying a Tesla Powerwall or similar device may be a good idea if you can afford it and can afford to do #3.
5. Stopping ready the Daily Mail & the Daily Telegraph will be good for your blood pressure (as if you didn't know that already).
1. Petrol-only and diesel-only cars will not be able to be sold as new in the UK from 2040.
2. Hybrids (where part of the power train is non-petrol or non-diesel) will be able to be sold new in the UK after 2040.
3. Putting a solar roof on your house (if you have one) now may be a good idea if you can afford it.
4. Buying a Tesla Powerwall or similar device may be a good idea if you can afford it and can afford to do #3.
5. Stopping ready the Daily Mail & the Daily Telegraph will be good for your blood pressure (as if you didn't know that already).
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Lots of people got very (financially) burnt from such a scheme a few years back. All the battery stations are now moth balled.It caused quite a lot of excitement in Silicon Valley at the time it was kicking off in 2005, unfortunately 12 years and $1billion later it's gone. A lot of the ideas of the scheme echo directly what people are suggesting in this thread.
There were some very clever people involved in the scheme, I wouldn't expect our government to deliver much better in 20 years...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place
foxbody-87 said:
Yipper said:
The game is up for petrol and diesel cars, vans, trucks, buses and trains.
The evidence shows you die younger if you live next to a busy road.
Young folk under 10 today will scratch their heads in 2100 and wonder how on Earth their parents and grandparents lived among such dirty smog and noisy motors in their towns and cities.
The ICE car today, in 2017, is in roughly the same place as the horse was in 1917. Popular, but about come to an end for mass-transport. By 1960, it was pretty much all over for the horse. By 2060, it will be pretty much all over for the combustion engine.
I suspect heavy cargo vehicles will be using the Diesel engine for some time to come. Hauling 40 tonnes for 300 miles requires a lot of energy and unless battery and charging technology adapt, oil is numero uno when it comes to convenience and energy density.The evidence shows you die younger if you live next to a busy road.
Young folk under 10 today will scratch their heads in 2100 and wonder how on Earth their parents and grandparents lived among such dirty smog and noisy motors in their towns and cities.
The ICE car today, in 2017, is in roughly the same place as the horse was in 1917. Popular, but about come to an end for mass-transport. By 1960, it was pretty much all over for the horse. By 2060, it will be pretty much all over for the combustion engine.
As for trains, the problem is that the existing overhead line system is designed for a maximum number of electric trains per section. 600A maximum IIRC. Start switching all your diesel services to electric and you're talking a total system renewal of thousands of km of wire and substations just to support the load without ending up in a tangled heap. Given that they haven't even stuck a shovel in the ground for HS2 I can't see it happening for a long time.
Edited by foxbody-87 on Wednesday 26th July 22:49
I think we might see HGV go one of 2 ways. Either banned from all urban areas (and thus requiring transfer to smaller, cleaner vans at some point in the journey) or a change from diesel to LPG/CNG.
You just need enough range to drive 4.5 hours...
dobly said:
To sum up:
1. Petrol-only and diesel-only cars will not be able to be sold as new in the UK from 2040.
2. Hybrids (where part of the power train is non-petrol or non-diesel) will be able to be sold new in the UK after 2040.
3. Putting a solar roof on your house (if you have one) now may be a good idea if you can afford it.
4. Buying a Tesla Powerwall or similar device may be a good idea if you can afford it and can afford to do #3.
5. Stopping ready the Daily Mail & the Daily Telegraph will be good for your blood pressure (as if you didn't know that already).
Pretty much that, everyone into a full EV is a very extreme and incorrect interpretation of these announcements, and the practicalities demonstrated by various posters to not be achievable.1. Petrol-only and diesel-only cars will not be able to be sold as new in the UK from 2040.
2. Hybrids (where part of the power train is non-petrol or non-diesel) will be able to be sold new in the UK after 2040.
3. Putting a solar roof on your house (if you have one) now may be a good idea if you can afford it.
4. Buying a Tesla Powerwall or similar device may be a good idea if you can afford it and can afford to do #3.
5. Stopping ready the Daily Mail & the Daily Telegraph will be good for your blood pressure (as if you didn't know that already).
One question of course is the definition of a hybrid vehicle. Thinks back to the Clarkson joke of installing a PP9 battery in the boot plus a motor from a Scalextrix car to avoid the congestion charge. But he had a serious point at the time, that many of these hybrids were simply legislation specials, designed to do just enough to qualify for any subsidy or concession.
Since then we've seen a few truly spectacular performance cars use the hybrid concept to aid performance and enhance ICE engine weaknesses rather than just drive along on electricity.
This is the future for hybrid imo, we are already seeing some EU6 vehicles with severe compromises to achieve low emission figures, can see the electric motors being used to make them more usable.
All this is completely ignoring the elephant in the room which TB has been pointing out, namely the fallacies in the "science" that is the driving force for all this. Particularly liked the comments from the respiratory physician re levels are illegal because we've made them illegal, not because etc etc.
Yipper said:
The evidence shows you die younger if you live next to a busy road.
Living near a busy road is a multi-faceted situation. Studies involving millions of people who are not individually identified and for whom researchers know nothing whatsoever of actual exposure levels indoors or outdoors are once again making hay from the epidemiological fallacy. Even then. there's no unanimity in findngs and associated headlines.
Researchers at Imperial College and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine - lead author Dr Jaana Halonen - have claimed that it's to do with noise, and that those living near the busiest and noisiest roads had a greater chance of suffering a heart attack or stroke and dying early, with sleep patterns implicated. That would be a good argument for removing speed humps but the amorphous datasets used won't reach such factors.
The epidemiological fallacy doesn't make it onto News at Ten and relatively few people are aware of what it is and what the implications are. As the implications are unfashionable and often run counter to the new green religion there's little chance of better understanding arising any time soon. Religious zeal leaves genuinely well-meaning people immune from the data and more credible research that's out there as evident from this thread.
Such matters don't alter reality in that the studies being cited that involve the epidemiological fallacy cannot back up the claims they spawn.
Evanivitch said:
foxbody-87 said:
Yipper said:
The game is up for petrol and diesel cars, vans, trucks, buses and trains.
The evidence shows you die younger if you live next to a busy road.
Young folk under 10 today will scratch their heads in 2100 and wonder how on Earth their parents and grandparents lived among such dirty smog and noisy motors in their towns and cities.
The ICE car today, in 2017, is in roughly the same place as the horse was in 1917. Popular, but about come to an end for mass-transport. By 1960, it was pretty much all over for the horse. By 2060, it will be pretty much all over for the combustion engine.
I suspect heavy cargo vehicles will be using the Diesel engine for some time to come. Hauling 40 tonnes for 300 miles requires a lot of energy and unless battery and charging technology adapt, oil is numero uno when it comes to convenience and energy density.The evidence shows you die younger if you live next to a busy road.
Young folk under 10 today will scratch their heads in 2100 and wonder how on Earth their parents and grandparents lived among such dirty smog and noisy motors in their towns and cities.
The ICE car today, in 2017, is in roughly the same place as the horse was in 1917. Popular, but about come to an end for mass-transport. By 1960, it was pretty much all over for the horse. By 2060, it will be pretty much all over for the combustion engine.
As for trains, the problem is that the existing overhead line system is designed for a maximum number of electric trains per section. 600A maximum IIRC. Start switching all your diesel services to electric and you're talking a total system renewal of thousands of km of wire and substations just to support the load without ending up in a tangled heap. Given that they haven't even stuck a shovel in the ground for HS2 I can't see it happening for a long time.
Edited by foxbody-87 on Wednesday 26th July 22:49
I think we might see HGV go one of 2 ways. Either banned from all urban areas (and thus requiring transfer to smaller, cleaner vans at some point in the journey) or a change from diesel to LPG/CNG.
You just need enough range to drive 4.5 hours...
my idea would to be to put cargo where possible on ships, have, then truck it the short distance to it's destination,
maximum distance you can be in the UK is 70 miles from the sea, it would require a major investment in infrastructure and ship building (not a bad thing) the problem needs looking at on a larger and more comprehensive solution.
PRTVR said:
my idea would to be to put cargo where possible on ships, have, then truck it the short distance to it's destination,
maximum distance you can be in the UK is 70 miles from the sea, it would require a major investment in infrastructure and ship building (not a bad thing) the problem needs looking at on a larger and more comprehensive solution.
Canals is the answer, canals and more rivers. We should be building more rivers.maximum distance you can be in the UK is 70 miles from the sea, it would require a major investment in infrastructure and ship building (not a bad thing) the problem needs looking at on a larger and more comprehensive solution.
If only somebody had thought of this a couple of centuries ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.
And electric boats. We flood all the major motorways to make rivers for amphibious electric cars, and we can have sails as a secondary propulsion system on windy days. Zero emissions, electric/wind hybrids, problem solved.
We then don't need to worry about changing weather patterns due to climate change resulting in heavier downpours in the future, so a double whammy.
We then teach all horses to swim so we can use the harness I am developing.
Win/win all round.
Dazed and Confused said:
powerstroke said:
Dazed and Confused said:
Why not just ban diesels and sooner than 2040?
Because they are saying petrol is just as polluting as the latest diesels ..It won't be until petrol engines operate (combustion) at the same temperature as diesels.
So, forget it.
Monkeylegend said:
Dazed and Confused said:
powerstroke said:
Dazed and Confused said:
Why not just ban diesels and sooner than 2040?
Because they are saying petrol is just as polluting as the latest diesels .."the air pollution penalty for diesel cars is often justified by the reduced CO2 emissions over petrol"
"the lack of progress in cleaning city air can be blamed on the steady increase in diesel vehicles on our roads"
Have a read and learn something.
www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/10/pollut...
Why is it only diesels that are banned from the LEZ zone?
Edited by Dazed and Confused on Thursday 27th July 09:34
turbobloke said:
Dazed and Confused said:
powerstroke said:
Dazed and Confused said:
Why not just ban diesels and sooner than 2040?
Because they are saying petrol is just as polluting as the latest diesels ..It won't be until petrol engines operate at the same temperature as diesels.
So, forget it.
Stoichiometry is mostly the reason petrols don't produce the NOx diesels do; less air, less N2. And their hot exhausts mean the three way cat can get on with its job of reducing NOx fairly quickly and keep doing it as the temperatures are usually sustained (my car, on my usual work trip very rarely dips below 500 degrees). Diesel SCRs need 350/400 + degrees for the SCR to start working properly (and yet you also don't want it going much above 550 either) and that is much trickier to achieve.
As petrols become more lean burn with direct injection, PN emissions will get worse. PM will never be much of a problem at all just because of the nature of the fuel, but the particles it does produce are simply too small to weigh...hence particle number counting. We will see Gasoline Particle Filters for sure but they'll not run into the problems DPFs do.
The likes of Mazda currently run 14:1 compression on both petrol and diesel (will be interesting to see their NOx and PM on the diesel actually) and they reckon they've cracked HCCI and will produce Skyactiv2 engines using 18:1 compression. So it will be interesting to see how that pans out.
Petrol has always been a better fuel for passenger cars in my opinion. Diesel should have been the preserve of the heavy duty prime movers; trucks, ships, trains.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 27th July 09:34
for the poor sods who cant afford a new Car of any description what effect will all of this have on fuel prices and Road fund licenses as the Government will want to recoup the loss of fuel duty and road funds from the increase in electric cars.
We should ban smoking altogether so the Government of the day can stop making policies drawn up on the back of a fag packet.
We should ban smoking altogether so the Government of the day can stop making policies drawn up on the back of a fag packet.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff