Drug driving and co-codamol
Discussion
I still get a lot of pain from injuries caused by a head on car crash over 3 years ago (not my fault, OAP had 2 pints and thought he was driving in Spain). Although I try and avoid pain killers, I sometimes take them if I can’t sleep. After watching TV shows were they did road side drugs tests, I was wondering if taking Co-codamol would give a positive test?
The liver converts codeine into morphine. The drive limit for morphine is 80µg/L. So how many Co-codamol 30/500 tablets would this be and how long would it stay in my blood?
For example, in a really bad evening I may take two Co-codamol 30/500 at midnight and another at 4am. When I drive to work at 8am would I be over the limit?
The liver converts codeine into morphine. The drive limit for morphine is 80µg/L. So how many Co-codamol 30/500 tablets would this be and how long would it stay in my blood?
For example, in a really bad evening I may take two Co-codamol 30/500 at midnight and another at 4am. When I drive to work at 8am would I be over the limit?
I've taken 30/500 co-codamol a bunch of times over the years (numerous snowboarding related injuries and breakages), codeine is great stuff.
Driving on it has never really crossed my mind as an issue, do they even routinely test for morphine?
I wouldn't be too keen to drive on it when "coming up" for the hour or so after taking a couple, as it spaces me out nicely, but can't even feel the effects the next morning or later in the day.
As far as I know, the new drug driving limits somewhat exceed prescribed limits, so unless you are buzzing off your tits at the time, it shouldn't be a problem.
Driving on it has never really crossed my mind as an issue, do they even routinely test for morphine?
I wouldn't be too keen to drive on it when "coming up" for the hour or so after taking a couple, as it spaces me out nicely, but can't even feel the effects the next morning or later in the day.
As far as I know, the new drug driving limits somewhat exceed prescribed limits, so unless you are buzzing off your tits at the time, it shouldn't be a problem.
drew.h said:
I still get a lot of pain from injuries caused by a head on car crash over 3 years ago (not my fault, OAP had 2 pints and thought he was driving in Spain). Although I try and avoid pain killers, I sometimes take them if I can’t sleep. After watching TV shows were they did road side drugs tests, I was wondering if taking Co-codamol would give a positive test?
The liver converts codeine into morphine. The drive limit for morphine is 80µg/L. So how many Co-codamol 30/500 tablets would this be and how long would it stay in my blood?
For example, in a really bad evening I may take two Co-codamol 30/500 at midnight and another at 4am. When I drive to work at 8am would I be over the limit?
Half life for codeine is 2.5-3 hours and duration of action is 5 so the levels of codeine would be minimal at 8am if taken at 4am. hence why you have to take them every 4-6 hours as the opioid effect has worn offThe liver converts codeine into morphine. The drive limit for morphine is 80µg/L. So how many Co-codamol 30/500 tablets would this be and how long would it stay in my blood?
For example, in a really bad evening I may take two Co-codamol 30/500 at midnight and another at 4am. When I drive to work at 8am would I be over the limit?
https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/26232
website said:
4.7 Effects on ability to drive and use machines
Codeine produces sedation and may also cause changes in vision, including blurred or double vision. If affected, patients should not drive or operate machinery. The effects of alcohol are enhanced by opioid analgesics.
This medicine can impair cognitive function and can affect a patient's ability to drive safely. This class of medicine is in the list of drugs included in regulations under 5a of the Road of Traffic Act 1988. When prescribing this medicine, patients should be told:
• The medicine is likely to affect your ability to drive
• Do not drive until you know how the medicine affects you
• It is an offence to drive while under the influence of this medicine.
• However, you would not be committing an offence (called 'statutory defence') if:
o The medicine has been prescribed to treat a medical or dental problem and
o You have taken it according to the instructions given by the prescriber and in the information provided with the medicine and
o It was not affecting your ability to drive safely
Codeine produces sedation and may also cause changes in vision, including blurred or double vision. If affected, patients should not drive or operate machinery. The effects of alcohol are enhanced by opioid analgesics.
This medicine can impair cognitive function and can affect a patient's ability to drive safely. This class of medicine is in the list of drugs included in regulations under 5a of the Road of Traffic Act 1988. When prescribing this medicine, patients should be told:
• The medicine is likely to affect your ability to drive
• Do not drive until you know how the medicine affects you
• It is an offence to drive while under the influence of this medicine.
• However, you would not be committing an offence (called 'statutory defence') if:
o The medicine has been prescribed to treat a medical or dental problem and
o You have taken it according to the instructions given by the prescriber and in the information provided with the medicine and
o It was not affecting your ability to drive safely
vsonix said:
Cocaine is not an opioid
Just shows you what I know. I stand corrected, road side is just cocaine and cannabis. Apparently tests carried out at the station will test for 17 different drugs.So co-codamol shouldn't show on a road side test.
Part of my worries was I recently purchased a Golf GTi off my son (just until I can get something decent) and I have noticed a distinct difference in attitude to this car, compared to my 33 previous cars, by the police. Including being aggressively tail-gated by a traffic Volvo. So its probably only time before I'm stopped for something trivial.
If you are in an accident/taken to hospital, the reporting police officer will ask for a sample of blood to run tests.
When I made friends with a lamppost and a tree after high siding my bike, officer came down to hospital and asked to have a force doctor take a blood sample.
This is where they would test everything in your system. I did say something about the huge dose of ketamine I had at the road side before being ambulanced but apparently they know medical vs street / time periods.
When I made friends with a lamppost and a tree after high siding my bike, officer came down to hospital and asked to have a force doctor take a blood sample.
This is where they would test everything in your system. I did say something about the huge dose of ketamine I had at the road side before being ambulanced but apparently they know medical vs street / time periods.
Funnily enough I'd been thinking about this as well (drug driving and opioids, I know fentanyl is synthetic btw ). Before long I will be on fentanyl patches - self administered. I will also have to make a 50 minute drive to hospital every weekday for treatment. Has anyone here been prescribed fentanyl?
The liver does indeed convert codeine into morphine.
The whole process of absorbing the tablet from the stomach/intestines, the drug being distributed around the body, then metabolised before the remnants are extcreted takes time.......but is a very well studied and documented process, as these sorts of things are useful to know as a doctor or pharmacist.
60mg of codeine is therapeutically equivalent to 5mg of morphine. However, only about 10% of the ingested dose of codeine is converted to morphine, the rest is converted to norcodeine and other breakdown products. What I do not know is the sensitivity of the roadside tests to distinguish between the different opioids or whether it just detects the lot.
Therapeutic plasma levels can range from 0.03mg/L (30mcg/L) to 0.34mg/L (340mcg/L) with a half life (the time taken for the levels to drop to half of the original) of 2-3 hours. The levels depend on many factors......suffice to say a rugby player with a meal inside would be on the lower side whilst a little old lady who eats not a lot would be on the higher end.
Personal call, if you have been taking them for some time, you may well not feel drowsy when taking them, especially towards then end of a dose cycle. You would be very unlikely to have plasma levels above the threshold for the roadside test (even if it detects all opiates).
Cold said:
https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/26232
I did a fair bit of research on this for an article.website said:
4.7 Effects on ability to drive and use machines
Codeine produces sedation and may also cause changes in vision, including blurred or double vision. If affected, patients should not drive or operate machinery. The effects of alcohol are enhanced by opioid analgesics.
This medicine can impair cognitive function and can affect a patient's ability to drive safely. This class of medicine is in the list of drugs included in regulations under 5a of the Road of Traffic Act 1988. When prescribing this medicine, patients should be told:
• The medicine is likely to affect your ability to drive
• Do not drive until you know how the medicine affects you
• It is an offence to drive while under the influence of this medicine.
• However, you would not be committing an offence (called 'statutory defence') if:
o The medicine has been prescribed to treat a medical or dental problem and
o You have taken it according to the instructions given by the prescriber and in the information provided with the medicine and
o It was not affecting your ability to drive safely
Codeine produces sedation and may also cause changes in vision, including blurred or double vision. If affected, patients should not drive or operate machinery. The effects of alcohol are enhanced by opioid analgesics.
This medicine can impair cognitive function and can affect a patient's ability to drive safely. This class of medicine is in the list of drugs included in regulations under 5a of the Road of Traffic Act 1988. When prescribing this medicine, patients should be told:
• The medicine is likely to affect your ability to drive
• Do not drive until you know how the medicine affects you
• It is an offence to drive while under the influence of this medicine.
• However, you would not be committing an offence (called 'statutory defence') if:
o The medicine has been prescribed to treat a medical or dental problem and
o You have taken it according to the instructions given by the prescriber and in the information provided with the medicine and
o It was not affecting your ability to drive safely
The effect of such pain killers on an individual are impossible to predict. I.e. they affect different people different ways and can affect the same person to different degrees at different times with regards to ability.
The simple answer is to know your own body and its reaction to the pain killers.
You might have no problems with reactions and perception in the mornings but if taken at 6pm you might feel overwhelming tiredness. There are plenty of online reaction testers, although reaction time is not the only thing that suffers.
Take care out there.
Lazadude said:
I'm permanently on Tramadol (400mg a day) which is stronger then codeine and Pregabalin, and I drive a lot.
The pamphlet that comes with it says it depends on what you feel, as I don't get any negative effects anymore since my bodies used to it
I'm the same with drink, doesn't really affect me so I just drive. The pamphlet that comes with it says it depends on what you feel, as I don't get any negative effects anymore since my bodies used to it
megaphone said:
I'm the same with drink, doesn't really affect me so I just drive.
But it does affect you.. Could you pass a US style field sobriety test? If you've just worked 48 hours straight and then try a 8 hour drive, would you be in a fit state?
The op didn't ask about legalities of different substances.. Stop being difficult for the sake of being difficult.
Data from the USA has shown that post-legalisation of cannabis, road traffic deaths have decreased overall which is great; an unforeseen bonus is that road traffic deaths where alcohol is implicated have also decreased, as without fear of legal recrimination, people can use cannabis responsibly and thereby lower their booze intake...
Whilst it's true that some minor impairment can be observed after cannabis consumption, drivers took steps to compensate by voluntarily lowering their speed, or simply not setting out until the effects wore off - the complete opposite from alcohol where drivers became riskier and more reckless after consuming only a few units. If anyone can be bothered with a 147-page paper, it can be found here: US Department of Transportation - Marijuana and Actual Driving Performance .
A slightly more recent and digestible read courtesy of Associated Press Study: No scientific basis for laws on marijuana and driving
This country really does need to get with the program regarding cannabis. We have a situation where the government grants cultivation licenses to a small handful of corporations, more or less in secret (GW Pharmaceuticals, British Sugar) that allow shareholders to profit from the cultivation and sale yet flat-out refuses to acknowledge the many medical benefits whilst grossly inflating the few negatives that are associated (many of which have recently been found to be caused by tobacco mixed with cannabis and not cannabis per se.
Cocaine is slightly more complicated - different insofar as some higher-speed driving has been noted, but in the UK it is very unusual for cocaine to be taken in isolation without alcohol or other substances - so if someone is found to be under the influence of cocaine the chances are that they will be over the drink-drive limit anyway. However in isolation it can actually improve driving performance in fatigued drivers. According to this American study "Drugs and Driving Impairment" by Arthur J. McBay, Forensic Toxicology Consultant at University of North Carolina:
"Cocaine effects on driving performance have been examined in a series of studies performed at SCRI (Southern California Research Institute). Twenty-four healthy male subjects, ages 21-40 years, who were self-reported moderate users of cocaine were used. An initial experiment with cocaine (96 mg., intranasally) and alcohol 0.58 g/Kg b.w., found no impairment of driving-related laboratory tasks by cocaine [14]." "In a second experiment with 96 mg. cocaine, subjects performed better with cocaine than with placebo with greatest difference observed during a test battery beginning three hours after dosing. Since that second test time coincided with the afternoon slump, the findings raised questions about the drugs effects with circadian rhythm [15]. Time-of-day differences associated with cocaine’s effects were further studied in a nighttime experiment."
In the nighttime experiment [16], "Subjects participated in three two-day treatment sessions. Day 1 began between 18.00 h and 19.30 h. Subjects slept overnight and were awakened at 08.00 h to begin day 2." Each treatment of 96 or 126 mg. of cocaine was divided into three equal amounts given intranasally at half hour intervals. Blood specimens obtained 10 min. after each dose had the following concentrations of cocaine/benzoylecgonine; 3/57, 64/214, and 189/363 ng/mL. "D-A (divided-attention) and VIG (vigilance) data agree with previously-reported data [15] in demonstrating that the effects of cocaine on performance persist past the period of acute stimulation. When subjects were tested near midnight, scores were better with cocaine than with placebo. It was only in the placebo condition that overall D-A performance was significantly worse at the late night hour. D-A RTs were faster with 96 mg. cocaine whereas 126 mg. cocaine prevented slowing of VIG RTs (response times). These data suggest that cocaine effects may be task dependent as well as dose dependent."
So it is interesting why enforcement efforts are concentrating on cannabis and cocaine as neither of those substances in isolation causes dangerous impairment. So it would appear it's simply an effort to catch and punish more people. The implication of cannabis and cocaine in RTAs by no means implies causality!
Whilst it's true that some minor impairment can be observed after cannabis consumption, drivers took steps to compensate by voluntarily lowering their speed, or simply not setting out until the effects wore off - the complete opposite from alcohol where drivers became riskier and more reckless after consuming only a few units. If anyone can be bothered with a 147-page paper, it can be found here: US Department of Transportation - Marijuana and Actual Driving Performance .
A slightly more recent and digestible read courtesy of Associated Press Study: No scientific basis for laws on marijuana and driving
This country really does need to get with the program regarding cannabis. We have a situation where the government grants cultivation licenses to a small handful of corporations, more or less in secret (GW Pharmaceuticals, British Sugar) that allow shareholders to profit from the cultivation and sale yet flat-out refuses to acknowledge the many medical benefits whilst grossly inflating the few negatives that are associated (many of which have recently been found to be caused by tobacco mixed with cannabis and not cannabis per se.
Cocaine is slightly more complicated - different insofar as some higher-speed driving has been noted, but in the UK it is very unusual for cocaine to be taken in isolation without alcohol or other substances - so if someone is found to be under the influence of cocaine the chances are that they will be over the drink-drive limit anyway. However in isolation it can actually improve driving performance in fatigued drivers. According to this American study "Drugs and Driving Impairment" by Arthur J. McBay, Forensic Toxicology Consultant at University of North Carolina:
"Cocaine effects on driving performance have been examined in a series of studies performed at SCRI (Southern California Research Institute). Twenty-four healthy male subjects, ages 21-40 years, who were self-reported moderate users of cocaine were used. An initial experiment with cocaine (96 mg., intranasally) and alcohol 0.58 g/Kg b.w., found no impairment of driving-related laboratory tasks by cocaine [14]." "In a second experiment with 96 mg. cocaine, subjects performed better with cocaine than with placebo with greatest difference observed during a test battery beginning three hours after dosing. Since that second test time coincided with the afternoon slump, the findings raised questions about the drugs effects with circadian rhythm [15]. Time-of-day differences associated with cocaine’s effects were further studied in a nighttime experiment."
In the nighttime experiment [16], "Subjects participated in three two-day treatment sessions. Day 1 began between 18.00 h and 19.30 h. Subjects slept overnight and were awakened at 08.00 h to begin day 2." Each treatment of 96 or 126 mg. of cocaine was divided into three equal amounts given intranasally at half hour intervals. Blood specimens obtained 10 min. after each dose had the following concentrations of cocaine/benzoylecgonine; 3/57, 64/214, and 189/363 ng/mL. "D-A (divided-attention) and VIG (vigilance) data agree with previously-reported data [15] in demonstrating that the effects of cocaine on performance persist past the period of acute stimulation. When subjects were tested near midnight, scores were better with cocaine than with placebo. It was only in the placebo condition that overall D-A performance was significantly worse at the late night hour. D-A RTs were faster with 96 mg. cocaine whereas 126 mg. cocaine prevented slowing of VIG RTs (response times). These data suggest that cocaine effects may be task dependent as well as dose dependent."
So it is interesting why enforcement efforts are concentrating on cannabis and cocaine as neither of those substances in isolation causes dangerous impairment. So it would appear it's simply an effort to catch and punish more people. The implication of cannabis and cocaine in RTAs by no means implies causality!
Edited by vsonix on Thursday 27th July 20:04
Edited by vsonix on Thursday 27th July 20:21
Edited by vsonix on Thursday 27th July 20:51
I think taking 60mg of codeine and then driving is quite risky. However, as said earlier it is metabolised fairly rapidly and doesn't stay in your system for very long. Other factors to consider if taking it and driving include if taken after a heavy meal when blood levels would be slow to rise and thus probably not reach as a higher a peak as they might if taken on an empty stomach for example.
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