Cyclist likely to be convicted of manslaughter..

Cyclist likely to be convicted of manslaughter..

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numtumfutunch

4,704 posts

137 months

Saturday 19th August 2017
quotequote all
Zigster said:
Retard, yes.

But what part of brake are you struggling with? A brake is a device for slowing or stopping a moving vehicle. On a fixie, applying backward pressure on the pedals will slow or stop the bike. UK law considers this a brake which is more relevant than your own special definition.
Have you actually ridden a fixie?

I have, only ever at the track, and it takes most of a lap to come to a stop

Its utterly impossible to execute an emergency stop

Pressing backwards on the pedals is pointless over a fairly modest speed

There are some bikes with coaster brakes activated by pedalling backwards, mostly kids bikes, however the bike pictured in the article was a track bike which didnt have this facility



b2hbm

1,291 posts

221 months

Saturday 19th August 2017
quotequote all
numtumfutunch said:
Zigster said:
Retard, yes.

But what part of brake are you struggling with? A brake is a device for slowing or stopping a moving vehicle. On a fixie, applying backward pressure on the pedals will slow or stop the bike. UK law considers this a brake which is more relevant than your own special definition.
Have you actually ridden a fixie?

I have, only ever at the track, and it takes most of a lap to come to a stop
Its utterly impossible to execute an emergency stop
Pressing backwards on the pedals is pointless over a fairly modest speed
There are some bikes with coaster brakes activated by pedalling backwards, mostly kids bikes, however the bike pictured in the article was a track bike which didnt have this facility
Exactly right. I'm amazed at anyone claiming that you can stop a track bike quickly by "simply" applying backward pressure. Try doing that when you're pedalling at, a cadence of 90/100 and see how quickly you stop. Chris Hoy might be able to but your average guy isn't, especially if he hasn't got a front brake to take the edge off the speed.

The only reason the law allows a fixed wheel to be considered as a brake dates from when bikes trundled about at 10mph, not a modern track bike capable of upwards of 30mph. And even if you want to hide behind that outdated thinking, you must still have a front brake by law.


Vipers

32,796 posts

227 months

Saturday 19th August 2017
quotequote all
Moominho said:
Vipers said:
Very sad, but I see it daily, especially women, head down texting walking, crossing the road etc.

FFS put that bloody phone away, and follow basic rules, when crossing the road even if the light is green, look both ways before you cross.

Especially when there is a stationary bus in the inside lane, many just walk past the front of it without a thought of looking down the outside for cyclist or other vehicles coming.

Having said that, the cyclist in this situation deserves all he gets.
I agree with this - however in this instance, the only indication that the woman was on the phone was the defendant saying so, and he would say that as he wants to be found not guilty. I know bike riders have a hard time riding in London with all the traffic, but I find his actions hard to justify, even though other riders are saying that it isn't his fault.
Agree.

Chest Rockwell

320 posts

117 months

Saturday 19th August 2017
quotequote all
Vipers said:
Moominho said:
Vipers said:
Very sad, but I see it daily, especially women, head down texting walking, crossing the road etc.

FFS put that bloody phone away, and follow basic rules, when crossing the road even if the light is green, look both ways before you cross.

Especially when there is a stationary bus in the inside lane, many just walk past the front of it without a thought of looking down the outside for cyclist or other vehicles coming.

Having said that, the cyclist in this situation deserves all he gets.
I agree with this - however in this instance, the only indication that the woman was on the phone was the defendant saying so, and he would say that as he wants to be found not guilty. I know bike riders have a hard time riding in London with all the traffic, but I find his actions hard to justify, even though other riders are saying that it isn't his fault.
Agree.
I read that the jury were shown CCTV of the incident. The media are not saying whether or not the CCTV shows that the woman was staring at her phone. Also, isn't the guy getting busted using a law from 1861 which most likely applied to horse drawn transport?

I ride, drive and scooter in C London and many who have nowt to do with this city would not believe the amount of people who walk into the road whilst staring at their phones. In fact, the phone staring stuff is so bad that we have people on scooters who make a living out of mounting the pavement and snatching the phones - appears to be a booming industry.

My push bike is a pretty decent road bike, with ultegra calipers, swiss blocks and the rest of the mech is 105. I've noticed that emergency braking above 13mph always results in all wheels locking up or myself nearly going over the handle bars with the bike attached, I wear cleats. The emergency braking is usually because of a car not seeing me or someone stepping out in front of me...and staring at their phone.

I'm no fan of those fixie things but I see very few riding them in London. What I do see, is loads of fools on old clapped out mountain bikes and BMXs with no brakes at all. The kids around where I live appear to have no need for brakes on their BMXs? If this guy is going to get busted for no brakes, then the local council or PCSOs need to start busting everyone else who do not see the need for brakes on a bicycle.

Personally, I think this was just a tragic accident but as usual the media have created the victim and the perp. The silence on the CCTV footage is deafening. Either the cyclist is a liar or he's telling the truth, but it seems to me that his "big mouth" is on trial.

Edited by Chest Rockwell on Saturday 19th August 17:45

poo at Paul's

14,116 posts

174 months

Saturday 19th August 2017
quotequote all
Zigster said:
poo at Paul's said:
Zigster said:
The bike had a rear braking mechanism activated by exerting backward resistance on the pedals. All fixies do and it's pretty effective (although I'd argue not as effective as having a front rim or disk brake as well).

If this case does make other "brakeless" fixie riders think again about their choice, that's a good thing. But I'm struggling to see the relevance to the overwhelming majority of cyclists out there which have a functional brake on their front wheel.
So no actual brakes at all then.

What a fking retard riding like that in London.
Retard, yes.

But what part of brake are you struggling with? A brake is a device for slowing or stopping a moving vehicle. On a fixie, applying backward pressure on the pedals will slow or stop the bike. UK law considers this a brake which is more relevant than your own special definition.
Like an engine brake then, just like my analogy. ie a crap brake, a totally ineffective one for travel in a public road.

Anyone who rides these things sharing the road with others is an utter in my book. A fking divwatt. How the fk can anyone be so fking irresponsible? it beggars belief. Get a proper fking brake on your bike you fking hipster retards. FFS



alfaman

6,416 posts

233 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
poo at Paul's said:
So no actual brakes at all then.

What a fking retard riding like that in London.
Yup - and the attitude of shouting " get outta my fking way" ...obviously expecting everyone else would simply part like the Red Sea did for Moses .. while he can barrel along a busy road at lunchtime .... and when someone was in his path .. little attempt to slow down. what a

Zigster

1,636 posts

143 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
numtumfutunch said:
Zigster said:
Retard, yes.

But what part of brake are you struggling with? A brake is a device for slowing or stopping a moving vehicle. On a fixie, applying backward pressure on the pedals will slow or stop the bike. UK law considers this a brake which is more relevant than your own special definition.
Have you actually ridden a fixie?

I have, only ever at the track, and it takes most of a lap to come to a stop

Its utterly impossible to execute an emergency stop

Pressing backwards on the pedals is pointless over a fairly modest speed

There are some bikes with coaster brakes activated by pedalling backwards, mostly kids bikes, however the bike pictured in the article was a track bike which didnt have this facility
Yes. I used to ride a fixie to work and back in London every day. I've also ridden fixed on tracks.

My fixie had rim brakes as well as the back-pressure brake - I wouldn't have dreamt of riding without the rim brakes as well. But I could usually get the 6 miles or so to and from the office with barely touching the brake levers. The only time I generally used the rim brakes was to give my legs a break going down a steepish hill (Camberwell Grove).

On a track, you tend to take a lap to slow down gently, but you could stop a lot quicker if you wanted to. A lot of fixed riders can skid stop pretty quickly by locking up the back wheel. Again, not as good (in my view) as rim or disc brakes, but very definitely braking.

turbobloke

103,739 posts

259 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
alfaman said:
poo at Paul's said:
So no actual brakes at all then.

What a fking retard riding like that in London.
Yup - and the attitude of shouting " get outta my fking way" ...obviously expecting everyone else would simply part like the Red Sea did for Moses .. while he can barrel along a busy road at lunchtime .... and when someone was in his path .. little attempt to slow down. what a

An appalling disregard for other road users (pedestrians) and their safety.

Stripey daylight needed to allow time to reflect and grow up.

XCP

16,875 posts

227 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
Never having ridden one, can someone in the know explain please, what is the point of a fixed wheel bike on the road? Aside from any safety issues, what advantage does the rider gain?

eccles

13,720 posts

221 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
roachcoach said:
Sylvaforever said:
Pedestrians have right of way.

Mortuaries are full of people who had right of way, I drum this into my kids on at least a weekly basis. Just because you have right of way, doesn't mean you don't look.

"I was feckin' right" is a piss poor obituary.
I mentioned this on my speed awareness course. The whole slant of the course seemed to make it the drivers fault if they hit anyone, no matter what speed they were doing.
Why is there no compulsory education for pedestrians? Being taught how to cross the road, and how to be aware of hazards associated with a road should be basic stuff taught in schools.

jmorgan

36,010 posts

283 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
eccles said:
roachcoach said:
Sylvaforever said:
Pedestrians have right of way.

Mortuaries are full of people who had right of way, I drum this into my kids on at least a weekly basis. Just because you have right of way, doesn't mean you don't look.

"I was feckin' right" is a piss poor obituary.
I mentioned this on my speed awareness course. The whole slant of the course seemed to make it the drivers fault if they hit anyone, no matter what speed they were doing.
Why is there no compulsory education for pedestrians? Being taught how to cross the road, and how to be aware of hazards associated with a road should be basic stuff taught in schools.
I thought there was no right of way in the code anyway.


numtumfutunch

4,704 posts

137 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
XCP said:
Never having ridden one, can someone in the know explain please, what is the point of a fixed wheel bike on the road? Aside from any safety issues, what advantage does the rider gain?
Because Hipsters

Toaster

2,938 posts

192 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
eccles said:
I mentioned this on my speed awareness course. The whole slant of the course seemed to make it the drivers fault if they hit anyone, no matter what speed they were doing.
Why is there no compulsory education for pedestrians? Being taught how to cross the road, and how to be aware of hazards associated with a road should be basic stuff taught in schools.
It is taught in Schools http://think.direct.gov.uk/education/early-years-a...

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

218 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
Sylvaforever said:
Pedestrians have right of way.
Do you have a reference for that?

The highway code certainly makes it clear that it doesn't grant "right of way under any circumstances"

What is does say is that you should always give way to avoid an incident.

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

218 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
Toaster said:
Is it taught consistently though? Being on the national curriculum would certainly help.

There are rules and advice in the highway code for pedestrians that aren't covered by the green cross code.

The green cross code is primarily concerned with crossing the road, but IMO it would be good to teach (and perhaps examine) children on much more of the highway code, especially the parts around cycling. Even parts for drivers would be helpful as it may help them to understand traffic better and be able to anticipate the movement of vehicles on the road.

XCP

16,875 posts

227 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
numtumfutunch said:
Because Hipsters
There must be a reason they choose to ride them though. People who make a living getting from A to B quickly must see some advantage. I just wondered what that is.

numtumfutunch

4,704 posts

137 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
XCP said:
numtumfutunch said:
Because Hipsters
There must be a reason they choose to ride them though. People who make a living getting from A to B quickly must see some advantage. I just wondered what that is.
I think there has been a degree of confusion in this thread with what exactly constitutes a "fixie"

A number of my pals, and as you say many cycle couriers, ride single speed bikes in urban environments for reasons of cost and simplicity - no gears = cheaper, less weight and less to go wrong. Bikes can be rather demanding if used every day and if I didnt need to ride up some serious hills on my way to work Id certainly have gone single speed for ease of maintenance.

The crux is that not all single speed bikes are fixed.

Most have a freehub so that when you're moving and stop turning the pedals the drive disengages and you get the familiar clicky noise as the wheels go round but the pedals and chain remain still. They would usually have brakes too for obvious reasons, and a small number have back pedalling coaster brakes which work by turning the pedals backwards which has also fuelled some of the confusion on here.

If you decide to go for the full purist/hipster approach and ride fixed to remove the infinitesimally small chance of freehub failure (or youre just a Hipster tt) then we reach the point where my own opinions diverge from the other poster.

Where I differ from Zigster is that in my experience if youre riding fixed it is nigh on impossible to execute a stop in a short space of time or distance. There is just too much energy in the wheels. Rising a fixie without a front brake - not safe in my opinion.

Cheers






Fastpedeller

3,847 posts

145 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
b2hbm said:
numtumfutunch said:
Zigster said:
Retard, yes.

But what part of brake are you struggling with? A brake is a device for slowing or stopping a moving vehicle. On a fixie, applying backward pressure on the pedals will slow or stop the bike. UK law considers this a brake which is more relevant than your own special definition.
Have you actually ridden a fixie?

I have, only ever at the track, and it takes most of a lap to come to a stop
Its utterly impossible to execute an emergency stop
Pressing backwards on the pedals is pointless over a fairly modest speed
There are some bikes with coaster brakes activated by pedalling backwards, mostly kids bikes, however the bike pictured in the article was a track bike which didnt have this facility
Exactly right. I'm amazed at anyone claiming that you can stop a track bike quickly by "simply" applying backward pressure. Try doing that when you're pedalling at, a cadence of 90/100 and see how quickly you stop. Chris Hoy might be able to but your average guy isn't, especially if he hasn't got a front brake to take the edge off the speed.

The only reason the law allows a fixed wheel to be considered as a brake dates from when bikes trundled about at 10mph, not a modern track bike capable of upwards of 30mph. And even if you want to hide behind that outdated thinking, you must still have a front brake by law.
my 2d worth...... Having ridden fixed for some years, to do so on the road without a front brake is total stupidity, and the guy is at fault (though maybe not 100% if victim was on 'phone. Regarding the braking, my observation is that if the front brake is applied and offers a good retardation, as always the weight transfer means that the rear brake isn't able to do a great deal and in my experience a fixed (ie not a single freewheel) wheel will provide just as good braking as a rear brake. Regarding the question of why people ride them (apart from hipsters), they get the rider fitter, have less maintenance (though still need to be properly maintained!) and certainly in wet/slippery road conditions can be safer (think of engine braking in a car).
A tragic event, and it would appear the rider is particularly dense, but may pay the price for his stupidity. Liken this to a car collision where one party (who because of the nature of the particular collision may not take much blame) being over the alcohol limit - who gets the lion's share of the blame?
If guy on bike had been riding responsibly, on a legal bike the odds would be more in his favour.

J.C...

156 posts

104 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
neilr said:
What needs to change is society's attitudes to each other,. The UK has a particularly unpleasant ' My Me Mine' attitude in general. Everyone is so blinkered in their belief that they are right , or on the road that they have right of way and in no way could they be wrong. Regardless of what mode of transport they are using (legs included, just look at how people walk around a shop ).

The way society views others doing things needs to change, and fast. It won't though. The Daily Mail adherents and their faux outrage will continue (on here and in society at large) whilst continuing to believe only they are correct.

What the faux outrage brigade can't see however is that this is a form of divide and conquer. Keep the peasants squabbling among themselves about st that isnt important. That way they wont realise they aren't reporting the important stuff
Spot. On.

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

218 months

Sunday 20th August 2017
quotequote all
XCP said:
There must be a reason they choose to ride them though. People who make a living getting from A to B quickly must see some advantage. I just wondered what that is.
Less to go wrong?