Transgender schooling row
Discussion
Johnnytheboy said:
Very good post. I find it odd that the medical establishment is prepared to so happily go along with the idea that a patient's brain is right and their body is wrong, when I suspect the opposite is generally true.
It doesn't happily go along with the idea at all. A lot of these things are denying real science. There is a lot of external pressure surrounding this stuff (gender / race etc ), what is and what isn't acceptable to research. The scientists who are standing up to this are at risk of losing their jobs, or at the least face a lot of criticism. I don't have kids but my sister does. I'm so glad she is living in a country with let's just say, traditional beliefs / values where kids can just be kids and not having to deal with the bulls
t that goes into Western society.
Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
t that goes into Western society.Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
amare32 said:
I don't have kids but my sister does. I'm so glad she is living in a country with let's just say, traditional beliefs / values where kids can just be kids and not having to deal with the bullst that goes into Western society.
Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
On a connected topic, do you think sexuality is binary, or is there a spectrum?t that goes into Western society.Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
amare32 said:
I don't have kids but my sister does. I'm so glad she is living in a country with let's just say, traditional beliefs / values where kids can just be kids and not having to deal with the bullst that goes into Western society.
Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
Perhaps a few are. But countless more are indoctrinated to be heterosexual when they are homosexual or to do girly or manly things when they don't want to. t that goes into Western society.Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
amare32 said:
I don't have kids but my sister does. I'm so glad she is living in a country with let's just say, traditional beliefs / values where kids can just be kids and not having to deal with the bullst that goes into Western society.
Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
You really have a distorted view of what UK kids are 'dealing with'. There's still the same peer pressure to be part of the crowd, teachers are still embarrassed to have to do the sex education stuff and when it comes up on TV we still get them asking "why is that man wearing a dress?". For the vast majority of them, it's a background thing - they know that some of the people they watch on YouTube are gay, and that so is Susan on Strictly, but that's about it. All we tend to notice is a passing curiosity and then they're thinking about something else.t that goes into Western society.Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
As for 'traditional beliefs' - that's rather sad. Statistically, in our local secondary school there will be one or two gay kids in each year. They'll be painfully aware that they're different from the rest and figuring out how to handle it. Trust me that there are next to no kids who think "I'm different from by classmates, that's wonderful". It's good news that the full extent of reaction from our kids is "oh, ok" (and bad news that there are still plenty of kids who will single out anyone who's different - whether it's for wearing a brace, not having quite the right school uniform or 'looking funny' - and pick on them). Quite rightfully, the majority of kids now understand that is unacceptable behaviour and will stop when called out.
If you want to think of that as indoctrination, I suggest you relax a little.
Plus - when were you born? Remember the 80's?
<applause>, Tuna.
Why does everybody get so excited about what other people do with their lives? Does it MATTER who somebody else may or may not choose to shag or marry? Does it MATTER whether the contents of their underpants "match" their clothing, or which bog they go into? I've never once had anybody at passport control check that the contents of my underpants match what it says on my passport - has anybody here?
On the flip side to that, look at what the world has lost through bigotry and intolerance - how much more could Alan Turing have contributed, just for one? But, no, who he fancied was more important.
Why does everybody get so excited about what other people do with their lives? Does it MATTER who somebody else may or may not choose to shag or marry? Does it MATTER whether the contents of their underpants "match" their clothing, or which bog they go into? I've never once had anybody at passport control check that the contents of my underpants match what it says on my passport - has anybody here?
On the flip side to that, look at what the world has lost through bigotry and intolerance - how much more could Alan Turing have contributed, just for one? But, no, who he fancied was more important.
HTP99 said:
The whole transgender thing has got me thinking over the last few months as I've recently had first hand experience of a female to male transgender person, plus a good friend of the wife's has a daughter who now identifies as male.
Both of these people have issues or have had issues to one degree or another with their home life.
The first person is 22, my wife worked with him for approximately a year, he lives as and identifies as male but hasn't had any operations yet but they are planned and he has a pre-op for the first operation at some point this month. He has had a very chaotic upbringing, he is the sole carer for his mentally ill mother and has been for a number of years, his mother has been in and out of hospital and has attempted suicide many times, is also the carer for his younger brother who has aspergers.
His mum and dad split many years ago after it was discovered that his dad was living a double life and had a second family, his sister also frequently dumps her son on him.
My daughter became involved romantically with him for a couple of months until it all went sour and he has been an absolute bd to us all, particularly the wife, whom he got on very well with, she ended up having to resign from her job because of him.
Friends who knew him from an early age never had any inkling about his feelings and assumed he was a lesbian, until a couple of years ago when he suddenly declared he wanted to be male, it shocked alot of people.
The second person is again female to male, 18 years old, the daughter of a good friend of the wife's, he identifies as male and has only done so recently.
Not a majorly chaotic home life but there have been challenges, mum and dad are together but have had rough times; nearly splitting quite a few times, dad has been made redundant many times, there are money issues and mum has had breast cancer, she nearly died but is still going through it as it had returned.
My point is that is with the above 2 people, can it be more of a control thing such as anorexia or bulimia; they both have/have had issues at home that have been out of their control, the focus is never on them so they decide to try and gain some control and focus back to themselves and use the transgender thing as a control mechanism as the only person that can control what they are doing, what they feel or what they want to be; is themselves.
Plus with the first person and the way that he has behaved towards us and other friends in the last few months, I can't see him being mentally strong enough to deal with the upcoming changes, but then again I'm not a psychiatrist.
By the way, the above are just my thoughts, if people see any malice in it, it certainly isn't intended.
None taken,Both of these people have issues or have had issues to one degree or another with their home life.
The first person is 22, my wife worked with him for approximately a year, he lives as and identifies as male but hasn't had any operations yet but they are planned and he has a pre-op for the first operation at some point this month. He has had a very chaotic upbringing, he is the sole carer for his mentally ill mother and has been for a number of years, his mother has been in and out of hospital and has attempted suicide many times, is also the carer for his younger brother who has aspergers.
His mum and dad split many years ago after it was discovered that his dad was living a double life and had a second family, his sister also frequently dumps her son on him.
My daughter became involved romantically with him for a couple of months until it all went sour and he has been an absolute b
d to us all, particularly the wife, whom he got on very well with, she ended up having to resign from her job because of him.Friends who knew him from an early age never had any inkling about his feelings and assumed he was a lesbian, until a couple of years ago when he suddenly declared he wanted to be male, it shocked alot of people.
The second person is again female to male, 18 years old, the daughter of a good friend of the wife's, he identifies as male and has only done so recently.
Not a majorly chaotic home life but there have been challenges, mum and dad are together but have had rough times; nearly splitting quite a few times, dad has been made redundant many times, there are money issues and mum has had breast cancer, she nearly died but is still going through it as it had returned.
My point is that is with the above 2 people, can it be more of a control thing such as anorexia or bulimia; they both have/have had issues at home that have been out of their control, the focus is never on them so they decide to try and gain some control and focus back to themselves and use the transgender thing as a control mechanism as the only person that can control what they are doing, what they feel or what they want to be; is themselves.
Plus with the first person and the way that he has behaved towards us and other friends in the last few months, I can't see him being mentally strong enough to deal with the upcoming changes, but then again I'm not a psychiatrist.
By the way, the above are just my thoughts, if people see any malice in it, it certainly isn't intended.
Edited by HTP99 on Monday 16th October 18:52
However to address your post. Many people have tough lives with similar traumatic experiences but don't turn out trans. However I do think that people having those types of life are more predisposed to taking control of their destiny, Either because they get fed up of living for everyone else or they learn at an early stage the fragility of life and are more likely to take control of their destiny. Probably also if they are sitting in an unhappy situation they are more likely to get up and move than someone with more moderate troubles that can be handled easier.
I would likely be in your group of people who suffered some hardship, Also many people (everyone) around me would have thought "wow where did that come from" when I transitioned. But to me, I was trans long before any hardships in my childhood and decades before I told anyone else. Even now my partner is the only person who knows the reality of my transition and even she doesn't know all of it. The rest of the world saw a sudden decision and transition that was far from the reality.
But yeah, there have been many aspects of my life where I have got up and done things that are based on how my hardships in life have changed my world view and resulted in me being who I am, and transitioning is just one of them with being trans likely is one of the biggest influences in itself, but being trans is not a result of those experiences. Transitioning might be.
Edited by p2c on Tuesday 17th October 08:59
Tuna said:
amare32 said:
I don't have kids but my sister does. I'm so glad she is living in a country with let's just say, traditional beliefs / values where kids can just be kids and not having to deal with the bullst that goes into Western society.
Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
You really have a distorted view of what UK kids are 'dealing with'. There's still the same peer pressure to be part of the crowd, teachers are still embarrassed to have to do the sex education stuff and when it comes up on TV we still get them asking "why is that man wearing a dress?". For the vast majority of them, it's a background thing - they know that some of the people they watch on YouTube are gay, and that so is Susan on Strictly, but that's about it. All we tend to notice is a passing curiosity and then they're thinking about something else.t that goes into Western society.Kids are being indoctrinated and brainwashed that they have to be 'different' in order to be exceptional. Witness countless kids transforming themselves into gender neutral transgender lesbian/gay non binary human beings - is it for attention or is that really what they want to be?
As for 'traditional beliefs' - that's rather sad. Statistically, in our local secondary school there will be one or two gay kids in each year. They'll be painfully aware that they're different from the rest and figuring out how to handle it. Trust me that there are next to no kids who think "I'm different from by classmates, that's wonderful". It's good news that the full extent of reaction from our kids is "oh, ok" (and bad news that there are still plenty of kids who will single out anyone who's different - whether it's for wearing a brace, not having quite the right school uniform or 'looking funny' - and pick on them). Quite rightfully, the majority of kids now understand that is unacceptable behaviour and will stop when called out.
If you want to think of that as indoctrination, I suggest you relax a little.
Plus - when were you born? Remember the 80's?
What's wrong with having traditional beliefs? So you're not saying that there's not a lot of indoctrination and messages out there in society and media these days potentially sending all kinds of messages confusing kid's even more these days?
I'm just concerned that my niece and nephew and the world they find themselves in growing up. So you're saying there's something wrong that?
amare32 said:
What's wrong with having traditional beliefs?
Define "traditional beliefs".Do you simply mean telling people who happen to be gay that they're inherently bad people, but can be cured?
Or would you actually go so far as to try and cast the demons out of them?
Should witches be dunked or burnt?
TooMany2cvs said:
amare32 said:
What's wrong with having traditional beliefs?
Define "traditional beliefs".Do you simply mean telling people who happen to be gay that they're inherently bad people, but can be cured?
Or would you actually go so far as to try and cast the demons out of them?
Should witches be dunked or burnt?
"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"
"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"
"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?"
"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
amare32 said:
I was born in 1977.
What's wrong with having traditional beliefs? So you're not saying that there's not a lot of indoctrination and messages out there in society and media these days potentially sending all kinds of messages confusing kid's even more these days?
I'm just concerned that my niece and nephew and the world they find themselves in growing up. So you're saying there's something wrong that?
You're a silly billy. If your niece or nephew are gay or trans, what then for your 'traditional' beliefs? Will you attempt to impose them? To what end? Conversion?What's wrong with having traditional beliefs? So you're not saying that there's not a lot of indoctrination and messages out there in society and media these days potentially sending all kinds of messages confusing kid's even more these days?
I'm just concerned that my niece and nephew and the world they find themselves in growing up. So you're saying there's something wrong that?
Your estimations of what 'today's' children are actually thinking are irrelevant. As are mine.
They know how they feel, let them get on with it. The rest is garnish.
TooMany2cvs said:
amare32 said:
What's wrong with having traditional beliefs?
Define "traditional beliefs".Do you simply mean telling people who happen to be gay that they're inherently bad people, but can be cured?
Or would you actually go so far as to try and cast the demons out of them?
Should witches be dunked or burnt?
amare32 said:
I was born in 1977.
What's wrong with having traditional beliefs? So you're not saying that there's not a lot of indoctrination and messages out there in society and media these days potentially sending all kinds of messages confusing kid's even more these days?
This is just my personal experience - it may be different for others - my kids watch TV and YouTube quite a bit. On YouTube in particular there is an impressive 'support network' of young vloggers who talk about their lives, computer games and all the other stuff kids do. Most of it is just the usual chatter - here are the coolest socks you can buy, you've got to see this music video, my mate got a really funny haircut. Some of it does touch on sexuality, bullying, depression and anxiety, autism, loneliness and racism amongst other difficult subjects. The vast majority of it is positive, supportive and honest. This is the sort of advice we never had as kids, people saying how they feel and what you can do if you feel the same way.What's wrong with having traditional beliefs? So you're not saying that there's not a lot of indoctrination and messages out there in society and media these days potentially sending all kinds of messages confusing kid's even more these days?
Far from being confused, our kids use these as a springboard for their own conversations, and find reassurance that things like anxiety or bullying can be talked about and overcome. They know that some people are gay, some are transgendered, that it absolutely doesn't matter and that's all they think about it.
The point is, you can't be indoctrinated to be gay, or turn into a drag queen, or suffer depression. It feels like quite a few people with 'traditional views' feel that sexuality is something you choose, or that people with mental illness should just choose to feel better. So no - there is not 'indoctrination' - any more than hip-hop is indoctrinating you to be black.
However, there is openness that these things exist. That's fantastically healthy because at some point your niece and nephew will be confronted with someone who is gay, or has a different race or religion, or suffers mental illness. If you think that they should do so with no understanding, no information and no empathy then you're setting up terrible experiences for them. We know that people who are faced with unexpected difference can struggle to find a good reaction - and sometimes can resort to bullying, aggression and other anti-social behaviour to deal with people they don't understand.
amare32 said:
I'm just concerned that my niece and nephew and the world they find themselves in growing up. So you're saying there's something wrong that?
Yes. As above. It's odds on that your niece or nephew will meet gay people, suffer depression themselves and experience a whole bunch of things that your 'traditional views' will leave them utterly ill-equipped to deal with.To be clear, I have no problem with people who have faith, and those who want to cut back on the flood of social media and commercialism that we have in the modern world. However, the limit has to be when having traditional views doesn't prepare your children for the lives they're going to live.
If people have time, I'd recommend listening to the last half hour of this morning's Today programme for a range of views on the issue of gender. It was genuinely interesting, thought provoking stuff: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z
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