Transgender schooling row

[Randy Winkman]

Europa1 said:

If people have time, I'd recommend listening to the last half hour of this morning's Today programme for a range of views on the issue of gender. It was genuinely interesting, thought provoking stuff: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z

Thanks. It does seem to have good balance. The bit about the 3 year old being offered a "pirates and princesses" party highlighted to me that I think society leads itself into this issue by making such a big deal of gender. I've often wondered how ticking the correct box and wearing "male" or "female" clothes sits with the liberal "non-sexist" viewpoint. But I've come to the conclusion that society makes gender a big deal so being recognised as the "correct" gender becomes important to many people. In a completely non-sexist liberal world, none of this would matter and (for instance) a trans-gender woman wouldn't wear "womens" clothes or tick a particular box on a form because these things would be irrelevant.

[p2c]

Europa1 said:

I'd recommend people listen to the last half hour of this morning's Today programme for a range of views on gender. It was genuinely interesting, thought provoking stuff: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z

Quite a few unchallenged mistruths and lies from the anti trans interviewees though and still very much trying to debate if trans people have the right to exist and live freely in society.

It was rather anti trans bingo though, I have never met a trans person who thought they had a choice about being trans or living an authentic life, neither have they been confused.

As for the lies about the changes to the gender recognition act being represented as allowing men into female spaces, For a start no it wont, any man entering a female space is likely guilty of public order offences at a minimum OTOH a trans woman is already protected under the Equality act to access such spaces and has been since 2010 purely on the basis of self determination, and we haven't seen men taking advantage of those laws in the past 7 years so cant see them taking the extra step to make a self declaration first.

I was also particularly annoyed by the inference that going onto puberty blockers was a guaranteed route to hormones, its far more likely that the blockers are being held back to the point the only people going on them are so well analysed they are pretty sure they are trans, rather than going on them eliminates the chance to rescue them from being condemned to a trans life as they view it.

Its pretty sad that this was one of the better bits of output from the BBC on trans issues, as horrific as it was.

[Johnnytheboy]

TooMany2cvs said:

<applause>, Tuna.

Why does everybody get so excited about what other people do with their lives? Does it MATTER who somebody else may or may not choose to shag or marry? Does it MATTER whether the contents of their underpants "match" their clothing, or which bog they go into? I've never once had anybody at passport control check that the contents of my underpants match what it says on my passport - has anybody here?

On the flip side to that, look at what the world has lost through bigotry and intolerance - how much more could Alan Turing have contributed, just for one? But, no, who he fancied was more important.

I think people get upset when they are expected to change the way they talk, act and even think because of someone else's life choices.

I'm quite happy for people to dress/act as the opposite sex, and even have cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex if they want to do that. After all, it has no impact on how I live my life.

I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case. Providing trans people are happy to adopt this live-and-let-live position then more strength to their non-gender-specific arm!

However, I suspect this may not be a position everyone is happy with.

[TooMany2cvs]

Johnnytheboy said:

TooMany2cvs said:

<applause>, Tuna.

Why does everybody get so excited about what other people do with their lives? Does it MATTER who somebody else may or may not choose to shag or marry? Does it MATTER whether the contents of their underpants "match" their clothing, or which bog they go into? I've never once had anybody at passport control check that the contents of my underpants match what it says on my passport - has anybody here?

On the flip side to that, look at what the world has lost through bigotry and intolerance - how much more could Alan Turing have contributed, just for one? But, no, who he fancied was more important.

I think people get upset when they are expected to change the way they talk, act and even think because of someone else's life choices.

They aren't. Except where they're not giving even basic respect to other people.

BTW, the protected characteristics under the Equality Act are, in the main, not "choices". We can argue about whether religion is a choice or not later - but I suspect the concept of religion isn't the issue here.

Johnnytheboy said:

I'm quite happy for people to dress/act as the opposite sex, and even have cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex if they want to do that. After all, it has no impact on how I live my life.

I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case.

Why does it make any difference to you which term you use to describe somebody?

[Johnnytheboy]

TooMany2cvs said:

Johnnytheboy said:

I'm quite happy for people to dress/act as the opposite sex, and even have cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex if they want to do that. After all, it has no impact on how I live my life.

I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case.

Why does it make any difference to you which term you use to describe somebody?

It only makes as much difference to me as it does to them, so you might equally turn the question around.

[TooMany2cvs]

Johnnytheboy said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Johnnytheboy said:

I'm quite happy for people to dress/act as the opposite sex, and even have cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex if they want to do that. After all, it has no impact on how I live my life.

I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case.

Why does it make any difference to you which term you use to describe somebody?

It only makes as much difference to me as it does to them, so you might equally turn the question around.

No, it makes rather a lot of difference to them whether they get basic respect from somebody they barely know or not.

[gregs656]

Johnnytheboy said:

It only makes as much difference to me as it does to them, so you might equally turn the question around.

So if, starting right now, everyone you met started calling you Mrs Johnnytheboy, she, her etc and continued to do so even after you corrected them - that wouldn't bother you?

[bitchstewie]

I think the thing that always leaps out is that most of this stuff is just common courtesy.

We had someone at work go from male to female, not in our department but someone I had reason to deal with occasionally and I'm not going to lie it was a bit weird because it's just not something you (I) deal with on a daily basis, but once I'd fked up with names a few times I got used to it.

I didn't at any point think "Well I'm going to make this difficult because they're telling me this man is now a woman" and personally I don't understand why anyone would have that thought process

[Tuna]

Johnnytheboy said:

I'm quite happy for people to dress/act as the opposite sex, and even have cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex if they want to do that. After all, it has no impact on how I live my life.

I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case. Providing trans people are happy to adopt this live-and-let-live position then more strength to their non-gender-specific arm!

It's a fine line, and one that I think some of the more extreme LBGT proponents cross when they invent 27 different personal pronouns. However well meaning, they've created a social minefield that no-one can possibly navigate through unscathed.

However, if someone is struggling with their gender, it really is a basic sign of respect not to point at them and shout loudly "You look like a man in a dress".

Both sides need to understand that the point of social rules are to make it possible for different people with different backgrounds to get along. It's unfortunate that we sometimes have to make those social rules into law (like "A woman in a short skirt is not asking for it" or "you can't refuse someone a job just because you don't like the colour of their skin"), but the aim is still the same.

In this case, you don't get to play the 'it makes me feel uncomfortable' card if they're making a reasonable request to be treated like a human being. You don't call normal women ugly, or insist on calling a married woman by her maiden name, so why should you do that to someone who has chosen to change gender?

Unfortunately you end up being told you have to do this because there are some people who really cannot act nicely unless they are forced to.

[TooMany2cvs]

Tuna said:

It's a fine line, and one that I think some of the more extreme LBGT proponents cross when they invent 27 different personal pronouns. However well meaning, they've created a social minefield that no-one can possibly navigate through unscathed.

Yup.

There's really only a simple three-way choice needed. Male/Female/Non-binary. Or, in FB relationship status terms, "It's complicated"...

[Europa1]

Tuna said:

It's a fine line, and one that I think some of the more extreme LBGT proponents cross when they invent 27 different personal pronouns. However well meaning, they've created a social minefield that no-one can possibly navigate through unscathed.

That was one rather depressing point in the piece on Today this morning - at one one point John Humphrys ran off an alphabet soup which began with LGBT but then had several other letters added.

[Vaud]

Randy Winkman said:

Thanks. It does seem to have good balance. The bit about the 3 year old being offered a "pirates and princesses" party highlighted to me that I think society leads itself into this issue by making such a big deal of gender. I've often wondered how ticking the correct box and wearing "male" or "female" clothes sits with the liberal "non-sexist" viewpoint. But I've come to the conclusion that society makes gender a big deal so being recognised as the "correct" gender becomes important to many people. In a completely non-sexist liberal world, none of this would matter and (for instance) a trans-gender woman wouldn't wear "womens" clothes or tick a particular box on a form because these things would be irrelevant.

On a positive point, John Lewis has rebranded a lot of the kids clothes as girls/boys rather than defining who they are for.

Which is good, because why should just the boys get dinosaurs/rockets/etc? Society embeds key behaviours at a very early age.

I was buying Lego for my daughter (who was with me) and was asked if it was for her brother, because girls shouldn't play with lego. FFS.

[bitchstewie]

Vaud said:

On a positive point, John Lewis has rebranded a lot of the kids clothes as girls/boys rather than defining who they are for.

Which is good, because why should just the boys get dinosaurs/rockets/etc? Society embeds key behaviours at a very early age.

I was buying Lego for my daughter (who was with me) and was asked if it was for her brother, because girls shouldn't play with lego. FFS.

There was a thread on here about that and predictably to some it was the end of the world and PC gone mad etc.

As said above when you get into 17 ways of referring to someone then of course something's got to give but it does surprise me how intolerant some people seem to be to even simple things.

[p1esk]

Vaud said:

p1esk said:

Well I was born in 1940, so just imagine how much trouble I'm in with all this!

Rose tinted spectacles?

No, I don't think so.. The cataract operations relieved me of the need to wear specs., which was a pleasant surprise.

[Vaud]

bhstewie said:

There was a thread on here about that and predictably to some it was the end of the world and PC gone mad etc.

As said above when you get into 17 ways of referring to someone then of course something's got to give but it does surprise me how intolerant some people seem to be to even simple things.

Quite. In many ways we live in a more tolerant world. In other ways, much less tolerant.

[williamp]

p1esk said:

Vaud said:

p1esk said:

Well I was born in 1940, so just imagine how much trouble I'm in with all this!

Rose tinted spectacles?

No, I don't think so.. The cataract operations relieved me of the need to wear specs., which was a pleasant surprise.

In that case you can read and choose one (or more then one) from the list:

[Tuna]

williamp said:

In that case you can read and choose one (or more then one) from the list:

If there's one thing I think we can all learn from this, it's that proper text layout is vital in questionnaires.

[checkmate91]

My God, reading left -> right they wouldn't stand a chance!

FWIW I dated a girl in the 1970s who was an acknowledged "tomboy" she played football and stuff like that, we got close and 31 years later are still happily married (she's still a tomboy tbh). Where I think some of today's challenges are going awry are questions like "how do you see yourself?" with little understanding of the background to the growing-up experience...

[Funkycoldribena]

Looks like a list of Marvel characters to me..

[p1esk]

williamp said:

p1esk said:

Vaud said:

p1esk said:

Well I was born in 1940, so just imagine how much trouble I'm in with all this!

Rose tinted spectacles?

No, I don't think so.. The cataract operations relieved me of the need to wear specs., which was a pleasant surprise.

In that case you can read and choose one (or more then one) from the list:

What a load of bks. It's no wonder a (seemingly increasing) proportion of our young people are growing up confused and not knowing what the hell they are.

Now then, before anybody gets too irate about that, and produces rude and ignorant reponses, let me say this:

I believe everybody should be treated with respect, consideration and compassion, and I would always try to behave like that towards others, even if one feels (as I do) that there's a lot of weirdness now surrounding the issue of sex and gender.

Now if, purely from their own feelings, and not influenced by other people who may be encouraging them to question who and what they are, an individual truly feels that although they were born as a boy they now feel sure they would rather be a girl (or vice versa) then they should be in receipt of understanding and support from those who are a position to help them.

I freely admit that I do not have a full understanding of this subject area, but from what I'm hearing I do seriously wonder what is to become of our species, because it seems to me that nature is malfunctioning more frequently these days, and if that is true, what is causing it?

Y'see, I've long felt that the boy/girl thing is a wonderful arrangement when it works as nature intended, which in my mind means that they pair off and form long term relationships as mutally supportive partnerships, and hopefully produce the next generation of good and decent human beings.

So there you are, that's me and my traditional values and old fashioned ideas I guess. Sorry about the somewhat disjointed waffle.

Best wishes all,
Dave - apparently male when last surveyed, and perfectly OK with that..

PS. Eileen, to whom I've now been married for 54 years, was still happily female when last examined.