Fists fly at Speakers Corner

Author
Discussion

XM5ER

5,087 posts

247 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Goaty Bill 2 said:
On that subject, I found the talk with Stephen Hicks quite interesting.

I was especially impressed by Hicks' ability to bring the conversation back to a starting point from where they had veered off, and on multiple occasions.
Hicks authored Explaining Postmodernism which Peterson highly recommends.
That is on my list, but I thought I would apply my ignorance to Jung and Nietzsche first. I have journeyed the Archipelago with Solzhenitsyn, followed doings of Police Battalion 101 through Poland with Browning (Ordinary Men), and experienced the nihilism of Dostoevsky's works.

I originate from the same side of the country, if not the same province, as Peterson. He spent his youth working on ranches and oil fields of Alberta giving him (I think) a 'working man's' (or "average person's" if one prefers more inclusive terminology), appreciation of life's issues that I suspect many (though by no means all) academicians lack.

That some people choose to label him a 'transphobe' or 'alt-right' only confirms their complete lack of comprehension of his lectures and talks. Many of those sort (transphobes and alt-right) were initially drawn to him and tried to make him their poster boy, but they had all misunderstood him from the beginning and seem thankfully to be falling away. They certainly gained zero support from him.
Thanks. My reading list is getting silly now. I'll have a listen to that also, shame I can only find it on youtube as I like to listen to podcasts in the car or walking the dog. smile

garagewidow

1,502 posts

169 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
foxbody-87 said:
I dunno. If my Mrs came home with bright green hair I wouldn't leave her, but if she had decided to become a man I'm not sure how I would react,.
I'd leave my wife if she got a tattoo, never mind a penis!
how about if she came home with a tattoo of a penis.

p2c

393 posts

127 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
vivalebeaver said:
Marie did not have someone in a headlock prior to things kicking off. She was stood there videoing events/the transactivists shouting abuse. Someone tried to steal her camera (and eventually succeeded), there was a scuffle while this person continued trying to get he camera off her and it sounds like she put up some resistance to this violent attack/theft. Whether anyone got anyone in a headlock at this point I'm not sure. Possible but if someone was trying to run off with my camera I would do more than put them in a headlock! A friend of mine wasn't there and that's what she saw. I believe her.....she's not that heavily into the femminist scene and I think if it had been different she would quite happily have said to me "hey Viva, I went to this thing and some crazy rad fems jumped on some transactivists". But that's not what she saw.
Appreciate its a tiny clip of a bad situation for all involved and never should have taken place, but this is hardly putting up resistance. She is in complete control of this situation at this point which looks quite violent for the one being shaken (even taking into account the endless repeat of the GIF) If i understand the timeline correctly, this was just before she was hit.


vivalebeaver

36 posts

149 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
You don't understand the timeline correctly. That's after she was hit. Sadly seeing as her memory card was taken out of her camera by the thief she can't defend herself. I'm not a 100% sure but I don't think it's Marie holding onto the transactivist in that clip, I think she's the lady with the glasses who is initially behind the scuffling couple who walks round the side of them.

vivalebeaver

36 posts

149 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v...

This YouTube video shows events a bit better than a very short gif.

p2c

393 posts

127 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
vivalebeaver said:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v...

This YouTube video shows events a bit better than a very short gif.
Well yes it does and the time line seems to be as follows.

Feminist identified in the video as the person the blue jacket (presumably we are referring to Marie)

Camouflage jacket person is seen running in and taking a swipe at the camera before continuing running past. (at about 10s)

When filming the trans people up close check headscarf tries to block the camera and then takes a swipe at her and presumably the camera, this is not cool but while this capture is a bit alien the motion video clearly shows an open palm and slap on the shoulder. (at 32s playback)



By 58 seconds we are into what is described by the video as a scuffle but is actually the person in the blue jacket holding the person in the check head scarf in a head lock








By 1:03 The blue jacket lady is in command of the situation and transitioning the head lock to the bear hug



By 1:10 we are into the animated clip above with the blue jacket violently shaking the check headscarf (which has now come off)



Then by 1:19 we have the check jacket return to the scene fists raised.



Then the punching, pulling and a tug of war with check headscarf person as the rope (1:29) before headscarf and blue jacket are separated (headscarf freed) and everyone goes their separate ways.



Its not good that anyone got hit. Its not good anyone got violently shaken or put in a headlock and unless your claiming the punch took place early on in which case the actions of blue jacket don't seem to tie in with the claimed punch, (why would she be so obsessed with wrestling someone else?)

The violence clearly escalated to a peak after blue jacket lady had been in complete control and violently shaking one of the trans group.

All of it is quite frankly disgusting and I'm by no means defending anyone's actions, but the innocent spin being put on it by the feminists is also not really the truth, their own video shows that, whether there were thefts or assaults is a matter for the police, who were apparently subsequently in attendance and reviewed the video and by the sounds of it told everyone to grow up. If there is any further police investigation and outcome we will have to wait an see.

The only good bit of the video is the lady in the red jackets dancing.

vivalebeaver

36 posts

149 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
You say open handed slap, she said punched. Whatever, he started it and was physical towards her. At one point according to Maria he had the camera but the strap loop is round her wrist so she is dragged into him. I would do more than bloody shake someone who did this to me.

Yes, dancing lady is good.

p2c

393 posts

127 months

Thursday 21st September 2017
quotequote all
IDK As Maria and the groups she is part of has sought the limelight of the MSM, more and more information about her is surfacing and these tweets from Maria are not really the tweets of the aged victim, more like someone looking for trouble and pleased and proud of themselves when they found it.

Furthermore it seems the person being tossed around like a rag doll was actually AFAB so it wasn't even the male violence it was claimed to be. The person in the camouflage was likely their partner from reports of them seen kissing, so coming to their aid is not unexpected and notably both of them exited the scene/fight once the rag doll was freed. Unlike Maria who continued the kerfuffle long after her camera was released, somewhat betraying the claim of concern for and trying to recover her property.

Either way, I wouldn't want to be associated with any of the people involved and do not believe they represent the wider trans community. All of them have received condemnation by many trans people and LGBT organisations (even with irony attached, Stonewall), However from your last comments it seems violence and escalation is commonplace in anti trans groups, given your connection to those attending and the statement you would have escalated further yourself.

|https://thumbsnap.com/5zT4PhRU[/url]
[url]


ETA last tweet

Edited by p2c on Thursday 21st September 11:06

vivalebeaver

36 posts

149 months

Thursday 21st September 2017
quotequote all
Well the day of the meeting The messages on Trans Health London fb page were awful. People saying they were going to go and "fk up a terf". And trans health London account liked that post! So I think saying people were looking for trouble is true for the transactivist side.

The people arranging the meeting were trying to keep the venue a secret because they didn't want the transactivists coming and causing trouble.......hardly people who wanted a scuffle! And trans health London were phoning round and encouraging others to phone round venues in the area trying to find the new location of the meeting. This was after the original venue cancelled it due to threats to their building and staff.

Seems quite clear to me where the violence and aggro was coming from

p2c

393 posts

127 months

Thursday 21st September 2017
quotequote all
And nobody except the TERF's are celebrating what took place.

I just find it sad that a groups of Feminists who claim to fight against oppression turn their own values inside out in order to oppress an even more marginalised group of people. Their methods of nullification of trans identities and objectives to remove us from society will never succeed as quite frankly short of genocide we are not going anywhere, Trans people are not going to be removed from public life and put back in the closet. No previous equality struggle has gone backwards in the longer run, Trans people exist and demand the right to be recognised and given equal treatment, Advancement will happen, the amount of blood spilt will depend entirely on how much the oppressors resit, Unfortunately TERF's have not learnt from their own struggle or the struggles of other minorities that have gained recognition.

Equality is not a zero sum game.

pc.iow

1,879 posts

202 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
p2c said:
And nobody except the TERF's are celebrating what took place.

I just find it sad that a groups of Feminists who claim to fight against oppression turn their own values inside out in order to oppress an even more marginalised group of people. Their methods of nullification of trans identities and objectives to remove us from society will never succeed as quite frankly short of genocide we are not going anywhere, Trans people are not going to be removed from public life and put back in the closet. No previous equality struggle has gone backwards in the longer run, Trans people exist and demand the right to be recognised and given equal treatment, Advancement will happen, the amount of blood spilt will depend entirely on how much the oppressors resit, Unfortunately TERF's have not learnt from their own struggle or the struggles of other minorities that have gained recognition.

Equality is not a zero sum game.
"Blood spilt"? WTF!
Are normal people allowed to demand the right not to give a fk?

p2c

393 posts

127 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
rolleyes if only

BrassMan

1,482 posts

188 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
p2c said:
And nobody except the TERF's are celebrating what took place.
[snip]
Equality is not a zero sum game.
Because the TERFs can claim to be the victims? If they had rocked up to a trans activist meeting you can bet your anus that the trans activists would be crowing.

If that were so, the 3rd wavers, MRAs and so on would make common cause to tweak their way to utopia, but they loathe each other. Or at least the audible ones do.

TwigtheWonderkid

43,246 posts

149 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
garagewidow said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
foxbody-87 said:
I dunno. If my Mrs came home with bright green hair I wouldn't leave her, but if she had decided to become a man I'm not sure how I would react,.
I'd leave my wife if she got a tattoo, never mind a penis!
how about if she came home with a tattoo of a penis.
So long as it was mine. A tiny tattoo I might be able to cope with.

Goaty Bill 2

3,393 posts

118 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
BrassMan said:
p2c said:
And nobody except the TERF's are celebrating what took place.
[snip]
Equality is not a zero sum game.
Because the TERFs can claim to be the victims? If they had rocked up to a trans activist meeting you can bet your anus that the trans activists would be crowing.

If that were so, the 3rd wavers, MRAs and so on would make common cause to tweak their way to utopia, but they loathe each other. Or at least the audible ones do.
It would appear to me that each 'group' has a limit to its tolerance.
The feminists and the transgender groups must surely recognise that they are fundamentally at odds with each other in their desired outcomes?

The radical feminists have long insisted that women deserve special treatment as a downtrodden class, but surely must remain unwilling to cede the same rights to the transgender 'group' as demanded by the more radical trans activists, such as gender fluidity, and legally identifying as a woman without providing any biological proof, therapeutic history or other documentary evidence to support it.

Ultimately the moderates and the radicals must fractionate, irrespective of which group.
The existence of the term 'TERF' is itself, I believe, a proof of this.
Like any historical class struggle, for the true believer, adherence to the 'correct' ideology is essential. Causing harm to those who were previously closest will cause no greater tremors of guilt than for harming those of the opposing class(es).


vivalebeaver

36 posts

149 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Sorry p2c, you've lost me slightly at the hysterical genocide comments!

You say the feminists are trying to obliterate Transpeople. Funny the feminists feel some transpeople are trying to obliterate women.

And it's not very nice to use the term TERF when it's considered an insult. I've been very respectful towards transpeople who would be the first to be up in arms if they thought a derogatory term had been used to them.

And I don't think that me saying I would do more than shake someone who started a theoretical fight by hitting me and trying to steal my camera is unreasonable....I would consider it self defence. If people don't hit me/attack me they have nothing to fear. I'm a very non violent, peace loving person.