Fists fly at Speakers Corner
Discussion
cymtriks said:
If someone repeatedly declares themselves to be equal, repeatedly threatens or shouts down anyone who disagrees and then starts a fight....
...where is the problem with "male" violence?
Looked like the gender confused types started the violence and not the feminists. Sadly the feminists didn't have the hands to respond. I would recommend some Krav maga classes or tasers....where is the problem with "male" violence?
Seems the modern trend if you don't like someones opinion you try and shut them up and it does seem worthy of some python sequence mockery but I feel uncomfortable knowing that these angry trans types can access female only spaces which my wife and female relatives use.
Vandenberg said:
cymtriks said:
If someone repeatedly declares themselves to be equal, repeatedly threatens or shouts down anyone who disagrees and then starts a fight....
...where is the problem with "male" violence?
Looked like the gender confused types started the violence and not the feminists. Sadly the feminists didn't have the hands to respond. I would recommend some Krav maga classes or tasers....where is the problem with "male" violence?
Seems the modern trend if you don't like someones opinion you try and shut them up and it does seem worthy of some python sequence mockery but I feel uncomfortable knowing that these angry trans types can access female only spaces which my wife and female relatives use.
There was recently the case of a male, imprisoned for rape who decided to have gender reassignment surgery. So she is now a woman and in a female prison.
With the new act anyone can declare themselves a woman without surgery. So a man, with a penis, a convicted rapist with a penis could be placed in a woman's prison. I wouldn't want to be that persons cell mate! Apparently Liam Huntley now calls himself Lianne and wants to be moved to a woman's prison....he doesn't want any surgery. There's a fear that many male prisoners may use this as an opportunity to be moved to a more "cushy" prison.
Once a man has declared himself a woman they can apply for jobs which have protected status such as working as a carer for a woman. Marks and Spencer's in one of their branches employs someone who is obviously a man but identifies as a woman as a bra fitter. They offered to check my friends 13yo daughter for a bra fitting. Oddly enough my friend declined.
As a woman I'm annoyed that young kids are being declared "transgender". As a kid I was very much a "tomboy" or gender nonconformist. I had short hair, wore trousers, rode my bmx and then motorbikes and fought the boys at school and refused to do country dancing but insisted I be allowed to play football. I'm now very happy being a hetrosexual woman. It concerns me that there seems to be an agenda where girls now who are like this are told they must be boys because they "feel like a boy". Or boys who don't like this stuff but prefer playing with dolls are told they must be a girl because "they feel like a girl". Why do we need to put kids in boxes.....or adults for that matter. It seems that people are saying girls/woman must like dolls and being nice and looking pretty and if they don't then they're not women/female. I find that offensive. It's restricting people. Women and girls should be able to do what they want without changing gender and the same goes for males.
With the new act anyone can declare themselves a woman without surgery. So a man, with a penis, a convicted rapist with a penis could be placed in a woman's prison. I wouldn't want to be that persons cell mate! Apparently Liam Huntley now calls himself Lianne and wants to be moved to a woman's prison....he doesn't want any surgery. There's a fear that many male prisoners may use this as an opportunity to be moved to a more "cushy" prison.
Once a man has declared himself a woman they can apply for jobs which have protected status such as working as a carer for a woman. Marks and Spencer's in one of their branches employs someone who is obviously a man but identifies as a woman as a bra fitter. They offered to check my friends 13yo daughter for a bra fitting. Oddly enough my friend declined.
As a woman I'm annoyed that young kids are being declared "transgender". As a kid I was very much a "tomboy" or gender nonconformist. I had short hair, wore trousers, rode my bmx and then motorbikes and fought the boys at school and refused to do country dancing but insisted I be allowed to play football. I'm now very happy being a hetrosexual woman. It concerns me that there seems to be an agenda where girls now who are like this are told they must be boys because they "feel like a boy". Or boys who don't like this stuff but prefer playing with dolls are told they must be a girl because "they feel like a girl". Why do we need to put kids in boxes.....or adults for that matter. It seems that people are saying girls/woman must like dolls and being nice and looking pretty and if they don't then they're not women/female. I find that offensive. It's restricting people. Women and girls should be able to do what they want without changing gender and the same goes for males.
vivalebeaver said:
There was recently the case of a male, imprisoned for rape who decided to have gender reassignment surgery. So she is now a woman and in a female prison.
With the new act anyone can declare themselves a woman without surgery. So a man, with a penis, a convicted rapist with a penis could be placed in a woman's prison. I wouldn't want to be that persons cell mate! Apparently Liam Huntley now calls himself Lianne and wants to be moved to a woman's prison....he doesn't want any surgery. There's a fear that many male prisoners may use this as an opportunity to be moved to a more "cushy" prison.
Once a man has declared himself a woman they can apply for jobs which have protected status such as working as a carer for a woman. Marks and Spencer's in one of their branches employs someone who is obviously a man but identifies as a woman as a bra fitter. They offered to check my friends 13yo daughter for a bra fitting. Oddly enough my friend declined.
As a woman I'm annoyed that young kids are being declared "transgender". As a kid I was very much a "tomboy" or gender nonconformist. I had short hair, wore trousers, rode my bmx and then motorbikes and fought the boys at school and refused to do country dancing but insisted I be allowed to play football. I'm now very happy being a hetrosexual woman. It concerns me that there seems to be an agenda where girls now who are like this are told they must be boys because they "feel like a boy". Or boys who don't like this stuff but prefer playing with dolls are told they must be a girl because "they feel like a girl". Why do we need to put kids in boxes.....or adults for that matter. It seems that people are saying girls/woman must like dolls and being nice and looking pretty and if they don't then they're not women/female. I find that offensive. It's restricting people. Women and girls should be able to do what they want without changing gender and the same goes for males.
I'm interested what you'd think if it was a lesbian in the place of that male to female transgender person in all the scenarios you've mentioned. With the new act anyone can declare themselves a woman without surgery. So a man, with a penis, a convicted rapist with a penis could be placed in a woman's prison. I wouldn't want to be that persons cell mate! Apparently Liam Huntley now calls himself Lianne and wants to be moved to a woman's prison....he doesn't want any surgery. There's a fear that many male prisoners may use this as an opportunity to be moved to a more "cushy" prison.
Once a man has declared himself a woman they can apply for jobs which have protected status such as working as a carer for a woman. Marks and Spencer's in one of their branches employs someone who is obviously a man but identifies as a woman as a bra fitter. They offered to check my friends 13yo daughter for a bra fitting. Oddly enough my friend declined.
As a woman I'm annoyed that young kids are being declared "transgender". As a kid I was very much a "tomboy" or gender nonconformist. I had short hair, wore trousers, rode my bmx and then motorbikes and fought the boys at school and refused to do country dancing but insisted I be allowed to play football. I'm now very happy being a hetrosexual woman. It concerns me that there seems to be an agenda where girls now who are like this are told they must be boys because they "feel like a boy". Or boys who don't like this stuff but prefer playing with dolls are told they must be a girl because "they feel like a girl". Why do we need to put kids in boxes.....or adults for that matter. It seems that people are saying girls/woman must like dolls and being nice and looking pretty and if they don't then they're not women/female. I find that offensive. It's restricting people. Women and girls should be able to do what they want without changing gender and the same goes for males.
vivalebeaver said:
There was recently the case of a male, imprisoned for rape who decided to have gender reassignment surgery. So she is now a woman and in a female prison.
With the new act anyone can declare themselves a woman without surgery. So a man, with a penis, a convicted rapist with a penis could be placed in a woman's prison. I wouldn't want to be that persons cell mate! Apparently Liam Huntley now calls himself Lianne and wants to be moved to a woman's prison....he doesn't want any surgery. There's a fear that many male prisoners may use this as an opportunity to be moved to a more "cushy" prison.
It is exactly that type of scenario which i refer to above that should be open to challenge and scrutiny, but that is no reason to put every other trans person through the horrendous process as it stands now. With the new act anyone can declare themselves a woman without surgery. So a man, with a penis, a convicted rapist with a penis could be placed in a woman's prison. I wouldn't want to be that persons cell mate! Apparently Liam Huntley now calls himself Lianne and wants to be moved to a woman's prison....he doesn't want any surgery. There's a fear that many male prisoners may use this as an opportunity to be moved to a more "cushy" prison.
vivalebeaver said:
Once a man has declared himself a woman they can apply for jobs which have protected status such as working as a carer for a woman. Marks and Spencer's in one of their branches employs someone who is obviously a man but identifies as a woman as a bra fitter. They offered to check my friends 13yo daughter for a bra fitting. Oddly enough my friend declined.
This just goes to show that re-writing the GRA will have no bearing on such things as it clearly already happens. Whilst obviously I have no knowledge of the situation in M+S and the individual involved i do find it particularly concerning the link your inferring between a trans woman providing a service to a 13yr old and the idea that impropriety would take place. Unless there is evidence to back up such a claim the inferred link and problem is clearly made up, and whilst it may seem like the popular opinion, its doesn't make it true or right. vivalebeaver said:
As a woman I'm annoyed that young kids are being declared "transgender". As a kid I was very much a "tomboy" or gender nonconformist. I had short hair, wore trousers, rode my bmx and then motorbikes and fought the boys at school and refused to do country dancing but insisted I be allowed to play football. I'm now very happy being a hetrosexual woman. It concerns me that there seems to be an agenda where girls now who are like this are told they must be boys because they "feel like a boy". Or boys who don't like this stuff but prefer playing with dolls are told they must be a girl because "they feel like a girl". Why do we need to put kids in boxes.....or adults for that matter. It seems that people are saying girls/woman must like dolls and being nice and looking pretty and if they don't then they're not women/female. I find that offensive. It's restricting people. Women and girls should be able to do what they want without changing gender and the same goes for males.
That is a complete misunderstanding on what it is to be trans. You would never have met the diagnostic criteria both now or in the past for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, simply because your never suffered it. Trans children do. The key components being distress about a mismatch in how a child identifies as and the gender they were assigned at birth, and that this is persistent, consistent and insistent. From your description none of those apply Oh I totally wanted to be a boy when I was younger. I used to tell my parents all the time that I wanted to be a boy like my brothers. George from the Famous Five was my hero as she refused to acknowledge she was a girl and I modelled my self on her. I called myself by the male version of my name and refused to answer to my proper name. For years.
Sorry, no idea how to do the quoting thing on here but wanted to respond to this....
This just goes to show that re-writing the GRA will have no bearing on such things as it clearly already happens. Whilst obviously I have no knowledge of the situation in M+S and the individual involved i do find it particularly concerning the link your inferring between a trans woman providing a service to a 13yr old and the idea that impropriety would take place. Unless there is evidence to back up such a claim the inferred link and problem is clearly made up, and whilst it may seem like the popular opinion, its doesn't make it true or right.
Yes, it does already happen. But the concern is it may happen more frequently once people can change gender more easily. I'm not saying that the trans woman in this situation would take part in any impropriety, I'm not suggesting they're a pervert, etc. However I do think it's inappropriate even if the person has the best intentions.
This just goes to show that re-writing the GRA will have no bearing on such things as it clearly already happens. Whilst obviously I have no knowledge of the situation in M+S and the individual involved i do find it particularly concerning the link your inferring between a trans woman providing a service to a 13yr old and the idea that impropriety would take place. Unless there is evidence to back up such a claim the inferred link and problem is clearly made up, and whilst it may seem like the popular opinion, its doesn't make it true or right.
Yes, it does already happen. But the concern is it may happen more frequently once people can change gender more easily. I'm not saying that the trans woman in this situation would take part in any impropriety, I'm not suggesting they're a pervert, etc. However I do think it's inappropriate even if the person has the best intentions.
And I wouldn't have a problem with a lesbian being in a female prison because they're female.
Personally I wouldn't have a problem with a transwoman who has had surgery being in a female prison because firstly they won't have a penis and secondly they're pretty committed to the idea of being a woman if they've gone that far. Ditto any post trans woman in changing rooms, etc.
I know some women would still have a problem because they say that trans women will still be stronger and could use that physical strength. Well if an individual behaves like that (and some women will always be stronger than others) then that needs dealing with on an individual basis.
Personally I wouldn't have a problem with a transwoman who has had surgery being in a female prison because firstly they won't have a penis and secondly they're pretty committed to the idea of being a woman if they've gone that far. Ditto any post trans woman in changing rooms, etc.
I know some women would still have a problem because they say that trans women will still be stronger and could use that physical strength. Well if an individual behaves like that (and some women will always be stronger than others) then that needs dealing with on an individual basis.
vivalebeaver said:
Oh I totally wanted to be a boy when I was younger. I used to tell my parents all the time that I wanted to be a boy like my brothers. George from the Famous Five was my hero as she refused to acknowledge she was a girl and I modelled my self on her. I called myself by the male version of my name and refused to answer to my proper name. For years.
Of course one of the key signs is not the use of "wanted to be" but "I am" and the other significant factor with treating of trans children is not to provide medication as commonly misconceived belief seems to think but rather the allow the child the freedom to explore socially. So in effect by you parents letting you ride bikes, get dirty, use the male version of your name, they were actually following the current treatment, you grew out of it, and there is nothing wrong with how you grew up, fantastic. But how would your childhood have been had you parents insisted you wear a dress all the time, you couldn't have played ball games, ridden your bike, you would have been a pretty miserable child. That is what some want for "trans" children. Yeah I agree more are being labelled than should, but the advise it to treat the child exactly how your parents did until it becomes clear the persistent part has run its course and medical intervention is the right pathEdited by p2c on Monday 18th September 21:21
vivalebeaver said:
Sorry, no idea how to do the quoting thing on here but wanted to respond to this....
And as i said, the Equality act allows for it to happen now. The Gender recognition act has very little impact on everyday life and pretty much has no bearing on the scenario you describe in M+S, but it is an important part of transitioning for many which is overly medicalised and bureaucratic at present. p2c said:
This just goes to show that re-writing the GRA will have no bearing on such things as it clearly already happens. Whilst obviously I have no knowledge of the situation in M+S and the individual involved i do find it particularly concerning the link your inferring between a trans woman providing a service to a 13yr old and the idea that impropriety would take place. Unless there is evidence to back up such a claim the inferred link and problem is clearly made up, and whilst it may seem like the popular opinion, its doesn't make it true or right.
Yes, it does already happen. But the concern is it may happen more frequently once people can change gender more easily. I'm not saying that the trans woman in this situation would take part in any impropriety, I'm not suggesting they're a pervert, etc. However I do think it's inappropriate even if the person has the best intentions.vivalebeaver said:
And I wouldn't have a problem with a lesbian being in a female prison because they're female.
Personally I wouldn't have a problem with a transwoman who has had surgery being in a female prison because firstly they won't have a penis and secondly they're pretty committed to the idea of being a woman if they've gone that far. Ditto any post trans woman in changing rooms, etc.
I know some women would still have a problem because they say that trans women will still be stronger and could use that physical strength. Well if an individual behaves like that (and some women will always be stronger than others) then that needs dealing with on an individual basis.
Fundamentally though we are taking about restricting the rights and opportunities and imposing excessive requirements onto trans people off the back of some hypothetical bogey man who so far has pretty much never been seen. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with a transwoman who has had surgery being in a female prison because firstly they won't have a penis and secondly they're pretty committed to the idea of being a woman if they've gone that far. Ditto any post trans woman in changing rooms, etc.
I know some women would still have a problem because they say that trans women will still be stronger and could use that physical strength. Well if an individual behaves like that (and some women will always be stronger than others) then that needs dealing with on an individual basis.
And again the Equality act already provides for access to all those spaces and the prison system has policies in place which they don't always follow, but that's to the detriment of the trans person not the other inmates.
Generally though i agree with your post.
Today I say "I wanted to be". Back then I said "I am a boy".
Yes I grew out of it.....but if my parents had said "ok, you're a boy" from a young age would I have grown out of it? Possibly not. I might have believed it.
I think my parents totally had the best idea. So why can't people continue doing that? Allowing children the freedom to be themselves as individuals without labelling them? What's the point inlabelling them if they may grow out of it? Don't you think that's potentially damaging? It doesn't have to be either label the child or transgender or force the unwilling girl to wear a dress. There's a happy medium as per my childhood.
One thing a trans person has never been able to answer me is when they say they feel like a woman what does it feel like to be a woman? I'm a woman and I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. I only know what it feels like to be me. Women don't all feel the same.
Yes I grew out of it.....but if my parents had said "ok, you're a boy" from a young age would I have grown out of it? Possibly not. I might have believed it.
I think my parents totally had the best idea. So why can't people continue doing that? Allowing children the freedom to be themselves as individuals without labelling them? What's the point inlabelling them if they may grow out of it? Don't you think that's potentially damaging? It doesn't have to be either label the child or transgender or force the unwilling girl to wear a dress. There's a happy medium as per my childhood.
One thing a trans person has never been able to answer me is when they say they feel like a woman what does it feel like to be a woman? I'm a woman and I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. I only know what it feels like to be me. Women don't all feel the same.
And one annoying experience I've had in real life (I'm a midwife), we recently had someone complain about a leaflet on our maternity services because it mentioned "women". Apparently that leaflet is transphobic and we shouldn't use the word "woman" when talking about pregnancy.
Seems to me that SOME people do want to erode women from society when stuff like that is said.
Seems to me that SOME people do want to erode women from society when stuff like that is said.
vivalebeaver said:
Today I say "I wanted to be". Back then I said "I am a boy".
Yes I grew out of it.....but if my parents had said "ok, you're a boy" from a young age would I have grown out of it? Possibly not. I might have believed it.
I think my parents totally had the best idea. So why can't people continue doing that? Allowing children the freedom to be themselves as individuals without labelling them? What's the point inlabelling them if they may grow out of it? Don't you think that's potentially damaging? It doesn't have to be either label the child or transgender or force the unwilling girl to wear a dress. There's a happy medium as per my childhood.
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The crux of treatment for trans children is not to tell them who they are but to allow them to find out for themselves in an environment the is equally supportive of returning to the birth gender as it is of transitioning, Anyone doing otherwise is seriously at risk of malpractice. However sometimes the parents need guidance and the family help with dealing with the situation. Yes I grew out of it.....but if my parents had said "ok, you're a boy" from a young age would I have grown out of it? Possibly not. I might have believed it.
I think my parents totally had the best idea. So why can't people continue doing that? Allowing children the freedom to be themselves as individuals without labelling them? What's the point inlabelling them if they may grow out of it? Don't you think that's potentially damaging? It doesn't have to be either label the child or transgender or force the unwilling girl to wear a dress. There's a happy medium as per my childhood.
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Its better for a potential trans person to be under the care of professionals who know the things to look for both to indicate an actual trans identity and someone who will grow out of it, someone who knows not to influence the child either way and can educate the parents on that too.
Like you say, had your parents influenced you, you may not have grown out of it, it is important with professional guidance that the parents don't influence either way. A trans supportive parent on their own without guidance is potentially more damaging than an unsupportive parent with guidance.
Labels smables, no one wants one but sometimes they are needed to make things happen in the way they should.
May i ask what age you grew out of it?
Well from what I see about support groups such as Mermaids they have their own bias and are influencing parents and kids themselves. I really can't see why a six year old boy needs to be labelled a girl just so he can feel comfortable wearing a dress. Why can't his parents just support him wanting to wear a dress? Maybe they're homophobic and are worried he's gay? Maybe it's easier to say he's a girl? But what if he grows out of it in two/three years time? How embarrassed is he going to be in secondary school as all his classmates will remember and constantly say "oh we all had to call you Alice in primary school" etc.
I think me "growing out of it" was a gradual thing. I really couldn't pin point an age but secondary school age. Maybe earlier than later in secondary school.
I think me "growing out of it" was a gradual thing. I really couldn't pin point an age but secondary school age. Maybe earlier than later in secondary school.
vivalebeaver said:
One thing a trans person has never been able to answer me is when they say they feel like a woman what does it feel like to be a woman? I'm a woman and I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. I only know what it feels like to be me. Women don't all feel the same
I pulled this out separately as its and interesting question which is quite hard to answer. Like you say you can not describe what it is to be a woman, and neither can I, and I agree everyone is different. For me a eureka moment though was that i didn't know what it was to feel like a man either. Every experience and thought i put down to being a man for the whole of my life, at the point of acceptance (not really a single point in time) I came to realise I had no reason to believe that was the experience of a man, and could equally be that of a woman trying to be a man. Equally I found myself clicking with women and feeling at odds with my male friends. In conversations I was often going along with it and getting away with fitting in because it was assumed i fitted in with them, when frequently i was standing there bemused at what was going on and not relating at all.
For many years (since i can remember) my mind was in turmoil about transitioning, jealously of other women, longing that i could be like them, why wasn't i like them, should i transition. When i started transitioning, that gradually faded away. I still have troubles and my mind races but that is more focused on being accepted and things i still need to do.
I'm not sure if that answers your question though.
Edited by p2c on Monday 18th September 22:05
And what do people think about Riley J Dennis who says if you're a straight man who doesn't want to sleep with a transwoman (who has a penis) then you're transphobic. Or if you're a lesbian who doesn't want to sleep with a transwoman (with a penis) then you're transphobic.
But it's fine for transwoman to place online dating ads for women but then specify "no transwoman" in their ad because they don't want to sleep with someone with a penis....because I guess deep down they know they're not a gay man.
But it's fine for transwoman to place online dating ads for women but then specify "no transwoman" in their ad because they don't want to sleep with someone with a penis....because I guess deep down they know they're not a gay man.
vivalebeaver said:
And one annoying experience I've had in real life (I'm a midwife), we recently had someone complain about a leaflet on our maternity services because it mentioned "women". Apparently that leaflet is transphobic and we shouldn't use the word "woman" when talking about pregnancy.
Seems to me that SOME people do want to erode women from society when stuff like that is said.
Yeah trans men exist and get pregnant, it happens, I'm not overly sure things like that are driven by the trans community though, to me it seems like we have more important things to achieve before PC language on leaflets. Personally i think its something driven by well meaning"allies" and trans people get drawn into the debate and have little choice but to say its a good idea as anything else would be discontiguous, but for the most part a little bit of sensitivity to trans people is all that is needed rather than complete elimination of men or women. The latter seems to be something driven more by a feminist agenda with trans people used as the patsy for any fall out. Seems to me that SOME people do want to erode women from society when stuff like that is said.
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