Boris. £350m for the NHS if we leave EU. Again.

Boris. £350m for the NHS if we leave EU. Again.

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don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
I've said here people voting for a party like the LibDems who state they stand at an election to offer another referendum is right and just. I don't agree with them and think they were deluded to do so, as evidenced by their vote share drop and the fact that the top 5 PHers of ' we're doomed, economic ruination, think of the children' even declined to vote that way.

So I don't think you can say I'm telling people to 'put up or shut up' in all opposition to all things Brexit. So you are perfectly free to talk about the risks to things like the car industry in a sensible way ( this doesn't include pretending you have the inside line on the Nissan deal as before ) and I'll maybe agree or disagree, but I think you are confusing this with those who make no bones about just not accepting the result and expect to just be handed a second referendum somehow without voting for it and refusing to explain why.

Someone here the other week was happy to say he wanted another vote and voted LibDem. All respect to the guy , he wasn't afraid to say why. Others who advocate another referendum say they didn't vote for it and then get pissy by saying its a trap to ask why they voted for another party in the face of their doom predictions and what the priority was in voting for a party endorsing leaving. Although in Labour's case that's all over the shop in the past weeks.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you've swerved the question being asked since I'll credit you with seeing what Twiggy is getting at. But it does give lie to any notion that the people you focus on to the point of obsession e.g bringing up ///ajd's Nissan thing three or four times a day, every day, are dodging questions to your obvious contempt.

Personally, I rather suspect had remain won, you would be in here arguing the toss but admitting that undermines you, so obviously, you won't.

On the point of the Lib Dems, it's an overly simplistic conclusion that their stance on Brexit should have produced a better outcome at the GE. The electorate are far more sophisticated than you credit them & make decisions based on more than a single issue. I'm a staunch remainer & didn't vote for them. I don't recall you or anyone else asking me why that is.
Yet Vince Cable talks about nothing other than reversing the decision of the referendum arrived at over a year ago, and thinks his 'saintly' stance will get him the keys to No 10.

As a staunch remainer one is naturally interested to know just who a staunch remainer would vote for other than the Lib-Dems, given their stance in the GE, we all know what both the Tories and Labour had down in regards Brexit, I guess that leaves the Green Party.

Still it's been asked before and swerved, pointless asking again

Eddie Strohacker

3,879 posts

85 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
don'tbesilly said:
Yet Vince Cable talks about nothing other than reversing the decision of the referendum arrived at over a year ago, and thinks his 'saintly' stance will get him the keys to No 10.

As a staunch remainer one is naturally interested to know just who a staunch remainer would vote for other than the Lib-Dems, given their stance in the GE, we all know what both the Tories and Labour had down in regards Brexit, I guess that leaves the Green Party.

Still it's been asked before and swerved, pointless asking again
Don't be silly...

You'll have to ask a Lib Dem if you want the latest but Vince was on the news last night stating explicitly in words even a leaver could understand that Lib Dem policy was a referendum on the final deal, not the decision to leave as you mischievously imply time & again.

As for my own voting record, what makes you think I voted for one of the local candidates because of their parties position on Brexit? You seem very reductive on this point. But since you ask, I voted for the guy who offered to campaign the hardest on a much need local bypass where I live.

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Eddie Strohacker said:
don'tbesilly said:
Yet Vince Cable talks about nothing other than reversing the decision of the referendum arrived at over a year ago, and thinks his 'saintly' stance will get him the keys to No 10.

As a staunch remainer one is naturally interested to know just who a staunch remainer would vote for other than the Lib-Dems, given their stance in the GE, we all know what both the Tories and Labour had down in regards Brexit, I guess that leaves the Green Party.

Still it's been asked before and swerved, pointless asking again
Don't be silly...

You'll have to ask a Lib Dem if you want the latest but Vince was on the news last night stating explicitly in words even a leaver could understand that Lib Dem policy was a referendum on the final deal, not the decision to leave as you mischievously imply time & again.

As for my own voting record, what makes you think I voted for one of the local candidates because of their parties position on Brexit? You seem very reductive on this point. But since you ask, I voted for the guy who offered to campaign the hardest on a much need local bypass where I live.
I guess you and I heard different versions Eddie, call it what you want, most can see through the rhetoric, the MP's voted overwhelmingly to give the electorate a referendum, and changed the way the question/s was to be worded.

If they didn't understand what the implications would be with a vote to leave and what leaving the EU really meant , they clearly shouldn't have been trusted with the vote in the first place.
Twisting things a year down the line to suit their agenda doesn't wash for many, many who clearly know far more than the f*ckwits we vote in to govern us.

I couldn't really give a toss who you voted for, I rather doubt given your current stance on Brexit that it (Brexit) didn't have an impact on who you voted for, but if you want to use a bypass as your reason for your vote good on you, let's hope your Guy was successful

Deptford Draylons

10,480 posts

242 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
I've said here people voting for a party like the LibDems who state they stand at an election to offer another referendum is right and just. I don't agree with them and think they were deluded to do so, as evidenced by their vote share drop and the fact that the top 5 PHers of ' we're doomed, economic ruination, think of the children' even declined to vote that way.

So I don't think you can say I'm telling people to 'put up or shut up' in all opposition to all things Brexit. So you are perfectly free to talk about the risks to things like the car industry in a sensible way ( this doesn't include pretending you have the inside line on the Nissan deal as before ) and I'll maybe agree or disagree, but I think you are confusing this with those who make no bones about just not accepting the result and expect to just be handed a second referendum somehow without voting for it and refusing to explain why.

Someone here the other week was happy to say he wanted another vote and voted LibDem. All respect to the guy , he wasn't afraid to say why. Others who advocate another referendum say they didn't vote for it and then get pissy by saying its a trap to ask why they voted for another party in the face of their doom predictions and what the priority was in voting for a party endorsing leaving. Although in Labour's case that's all over the shop in the past weeks.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you've swerved the question being asked since I'll credit you with seeing what Twiggy is getting at. But it does give lie to any notion that the people you focus on to the point of obsession e.g bringing up ///ajd's Nissan thing three or four times a day, every day, are dodging questions to your obvious contempt.

Personally, I rather suspect had remain won, you would be in here arguing the toss but admitting that undermines you, so obviously, you won't.

On the point of the Lib Dems, it's an overly simplistic conclusion that their stance on Brexit should have produced a better outcome at the GE. The electorate are far more sophisticated than you credit them & make decisions based on more than a single issue. I'm a staunch remainer & didn't vote for them. I don't recall you or anyone else asking me why that is.
OK, I'll indulge you. What part do you feel I've dodged ? I already said I'd still be here saying why I thought it was the wrong decision, I just wouldn't be able to do anything about and said I would not be immediately trying to reverse the result. As with the LibDem voter I mentioned, both of us would be free to vote how and for what we wanted at an election.

Unlike you, I won't say its a trap, I'll come back and expand on it. Lets hear if Twiggy feels his question has been dodged. The essential point being people bh and moan about any result, some don't just cry and try and re-run the game or reverse the decision.
Feel free to say why you want a second referendum to reverse the first and why you expect to get one without voting for it. You said you didn't vote LibDem, so seems an interesting question as to what your priorities are in either voting Tory or Labour.

I'm glad you endorse the electorate as sophisticated, although several years on from the decision to let them decide in a referendum, you are still moaning like mad about it. Seems a bit double standards to me.

Poor old ///ajd and his Nissan stance. I mention it as a constant reminder of his logic, especially so when he learns nothing and now leaps on the Rolls story.
When he tells me the outcome will be illegal state aid for Nissan and their boss will decide at which point they are out of pocket and HMG will cough up some cash for them, only to tell me his proof of this is that the boss smiled at the awaiting press pack, then this level of silliness may imply some agenda is at work here and he doesn't have a lot of balance to offer, only an overdose of smug glee at the ( wrong as it turns out ) bad news.

Eddie Strohacker

3,879 posts

85 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
don'tbesilly said:
one is naturally interested to know just who a staunch remainer would vote for
don'tbesilly said:
I couldn't really give a toss who you voted for,
I see. You're naturally interested in who I vote for but couldn't give a toss. silly

Edited by Eddie Strohacker on Wednesday 20th September 14:35

Murph7355

37,646 posts

255 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Eddie Strohacker said:
No, it's evidence the Tory party has long been a home for little Englanders longing for a nostalgic vision of homogeneous Blighty that never existed & whom are more than willing to place their own narrow views well above their country's best interests. Put it this way, not every Brexiteer is an immigrant hating parochial regressive but I'd bet every immigrant hating parochial regressive is a Brexiteer.

Anyway, your smilies have disappeared from our exchanges, so I can see a nerve has been touched, so I'll leave it there, after all I don't want you getting all impotently ragey like Deptford. smile
You got upset at my use of smilies before so I stopped. That's the trouble with you Remainer's, you don't really know what you want. (Can you do a "half smilie"? wink).

Do you think those Little England Tories just magicked into the HoC? What about the millions of UKIP votes? Did your friend Nigel sit in one weekend watching Alf Garnet reruns ticking them all himself?

You appear to be trying to dismiss any notion of division ahead of the referendum and want to blame it all on a few euro-sceptic Tories which is clearly ludicrous. As back up you then resort to Little Englanders. Equally ludicrous from someone who'd evidently prefer to be a Little EUer wink (bugger. Is that one allowed?).

What about your narrow views of what's best for the country? What makes Little EUers incontrovertibly right and Little Englanders equally wrong? It can't just be ego... But then there wasn't enough of substance in the run up to the referendum to persuade more than 50%. So what could it be?

(btw, flounce no3 wasn't even a good one. Come back and try harder).

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Eddie Strohacker said:
don'tbesilly said:
one is naturally interested to know just who a staunch remainer would vote for
don'tbesilly said:
I couldn't really give a toss who you voted for,
I see. You're naturally interested in who I vote for but couldn't give a toss. silly

Edited by Eddie Strohacker on Wednesday 20th September 14:35
Interested and caring, two different things Eddie, ask one of your kids to explain if you're struggling.

Silly Eddie laugh

Eddie Strohacker

3,879 posts

85 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
don'tbesilly said:
Interested and caring, two different things Eddie, ask one of your kids to explain if you're struggling.

Silly Eddie laugh
Oh dear. Next.

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Eddie Strohacker said:
don'tbesilly said:
Interested and caring, two different things Eddie, ask one of your kids to explain if you're struggling.

Silly Eddie laugh
Oh dear. Next.
laugh

"Ask me how I know" Eddie is struggling...................next.

TTwiggy

11,499 posts

203 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
For what it's worth (and I'll concede that's not very much) I think this forum would have gone into meltdown if it had been a 52-48 vote for Remain. There were already rumblings about possible subterfuge and the 'inherently unfair' nature of the government's campaign ahead of the vote. A split like that would have seen calls for Nige to form a people's army and march on Whitehall.

Murph7355

37,646 posts

255 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
TTwiggy said:
For what it's worth (and I'll concede that's not very much) I think this forum would have gone into meltdown if it had been a 52-48 vote for Remain. There were already rumblings about possible subterfuge and the 'inherently unfair' nature of the government's campaign ahead of the vote. A split like that would have seen calls for Nige to form a people's army and march on Whitehall.
You think it hasn't with the vote going this way? smile

You're probably right. But as with many things on this topic, we will never know.

Eddie Strohacker

3,879 posts

85 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
TTwiggy said:
For what it's worth (and I'll concede that's not very much) I think this forum would have gone into meltdown if it had been a 52-48 vote for Remain. There were already rumblings about possible subterfuge and the 'inherently unfair' nature of the government's campaign ahead of the vote. A split like that would have seen calls for Nige to form a people's army and march on Whitehall.
FWIW & also not much, I agree & it's instructive that if you're an upstanding thoroughly patriotic remainer around here, then you're in for a hard time & that's before you throw in a..combative manner, like wot I got.

As for Nige & his march on Whitehall, you do recall he did try that, right? 100,000 to march on the high court, the day of the Gina Miller ( cloud9 ) case?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/06/nigel-f...

I think at least fifteen people turned out for it, if not more.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brex...

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
What about the millions of UKIP votes? Did your friend Nigel sit in one weekend watching Alf Garnet reruns ticking them all himself?
Let's look at those figures, shall we? And let's compare them to the LibDems, since we're talking about them.

2009 EU election - UKIP 2.498m, LD 2.080m
2010 General election - UKIP 919k, LD 6.836m
2014 EU election - UKIP 4.376m, LD 1.087m
2015 General election - UKIP 3.881m, LD 2.415m
2017 General election - UKIP 594k, LD 2.371m


So average vote counts...

UKIP - 1.798m General, 3.437m EU, 2.454m overall.
LD - 3.874m General, 1.583m EU, 2.958m overall.

Seems to me that people vote UKIP where they don't think it'll do any harm - EU elections, which UKIP voters don't think have any point anyway, else they wouldn't vote for a party whose stated aim in the EU parliament is to take as much money as possible while doing as little work as possible and voting against anything on principle - if they bother at all.

When it comes to a vote which they think will make a difference, they don't vote UKIP - as can be seen by the last three general elections seeing twice as many people voting LD than UKIP...

We could go further back in time, but that'd skew the comparison further away from UKIP (LD 10x UKIP votes in 2005 GE, roughly equal in 2004 EU).

turbobloke

103,735 posts

259 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
For whatever ratio of votes, UKIP pressure got a referendum from CMD that led to the vote to Leave, and the UK will shortly leave the EU.

Compared to Farage, Vince may be better at sending people to sleep - there's usually a positive somewhere. The insomniac vote is important.

SantaBarbara

3,244 posts

107 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Vince Cable is fighting last years War

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
Compared to Farage, Vince may be better at sending people to sleep...
We have no idea... Cable hasn't led a party into a single election, ever, while Farage led UKIP into just three of those five elections - 2009/14/15.

FWIW, I don't think Farron was remotely up to the job, and Cable's also the wrong guy.

turbobloke

103,735 posts

259 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
What I posted about Farage was reasonable enough.

What I posted about Vince...Cable...was... sleep

Murph7355

37,646 posts

255 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
Let's look at those figures, shall we? And let's compare them to the LibDems, since we're talking about them.

2009 EU election - UKIP 2.498m, LD 2.080m
2010 General election - UKIP 919k, LD 6.836m
2014 EU election - UKIP 4.376m, LD 1.087m
2015 General election - UKIP 3.881m, LD 2.415m
2017 General election - UKIP 594k, LD 2.371m


So average vote counts...

UKIP - 1.798m General, 3.437m EU, 2.454m overall.
LD - 3.874m General, 1.583m EU, 2.958m overall.

Seems to me that people vote UKIP where they don't think it'll do any harm - EU elections, which UKIP voters don't think have any point anyway, else they wouldn't vote for a party whose stated aim in the EU parliament is to take as much money as possible while doing as little work as possible and voting against anything on principle - if they bother at all.

When it comes to a vote which they think will make a difference, they don't vote UKIP - as can be seen by the last three general elections seeing twice as many people voting LD than UKIP...

We could go further back in time, but that'd skew the comparison further away from UKIP (LD 10x UKIP votes in 2005 GE, roughly equal in 2004 EU).
Not sure why you include EU elections or are including them in blended averages. They are not the same thing. And averages hide a multitude of sins...

2017...UKIP's reason for being had gone.

Looking at all the figures, UKIPs earlier performance prove the point. They increased their take of the vote every year from their inception until their objective was achieved (getting on for exponentially).

The LibDems bounced around the 5-7m mark until they allowed themselves to be the patsies in 2010...since then they've bobbled below 2.5m. And I would bet they'll stay there for a few more cycles yet.

Figures are funny old things.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
Not sure why you include EU elections or are including them in blended averages.
Because if I hadn't, I'd have been accused of ignoring the elections where UKIP had their best success.

SantaBarbara

3,244 posts

107 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
Because if I hadn't, I'd have been accused of ignoring the elections where UKIP had their best success.
Not by me you wouldn't