Rolls Royce cars to be made in German factory due to brexit?
Discussion
Jimboka said:
if it does go there, I expect EU will allow the most skilled engineers to relocate to Germany to maintain the quality.
( we will reciprocate by allowing Baristas & Carrot pickers to stay
)
I think most of the engineers are in Germany, or are you referring to the workers on the assembly line?( we will reciprocate by allowing Baristas & Carrot pickers to stay
)Sway said:
mike9009 said:
An interesting topic.
What other 'global' brands/ cars need to be built in their original country of origin?
Would people in the UK be bothered if their VW Beetle was built in Brazil or Germany? What about Maybach, Corvettes, Bugatti, Fiat 500, Lamborghini? If you wanted a Corvette would it bother you if it were built in Hungary instead of the US - if you had your heart set on one, would the country of manufacture matter? Personally I don't think I would be bothered......
Or is this a phenomena only for British cars??
Mike
Personally, I think there are certain cars that embody the character of the associated nation.What other 'global' brands/ cars need to be built in their original country of origin?
Would people in the UK be bothered if their VW Beetle was built in Brazil or Germany? What about Maybach, Corvettes, Bugatti, Fiat 500, Lamborghini? If you wanted a Corvette would it bother you if it were built in Hungary instead of the US - if you had your heart set on one, would the country of manufacture matter? Personally I don't think I would be bothered......
Or is this a phenomena only for British cars??
Mike
Rolls Royce, Lotus and Morgan are brands I think are absolutely linked to the UK, and it would harm the appeal if they weren't built here.
Same with Ferrari/ Italy.
I think a Corvette or Mustang built anywhere other than the US would be very odd, or a NSX not crafted in Japan.
The German brands are perhaps less so, possibly due to the generally higher volume - but almost certainly as the massive levels of platform sharing also dilute the link with the country of origin. How many countries are MQB based vehicles made in?
This is despite every production KPI showing that the Thai product was better than the German product.
Liokault said:
When Ford started making Kuga in Thailand, they took out full page ad's in German newspapers to reassure the Germans that no Ford sold in Germany would come from Thailand and Guarantee that any Kuga bought in Germany would be a German made product.
This is despite every production KPI showing that the Thai product was better than the German product.
The Kuga's never been built in Thailand. The first shape was Saarlouis only, the second shape is Valencia (/China/Russia/US).This is despite every production KPI showing that the Thai product was better than the German product.
The EcoSport's built in Thailand, but only for SE Asian markets - European cars are built in India.
The Ranger's the only Thai-built Ford sold in Europe - and that's not built in Europe at all.
Sway said:
They're buying the automotive Savile Row suit...
Albeit a suit designed in Germany, mainly made in Germany but finished and sold on Saville Row...I think RR is a great product and a great brand and I'd love it stay here in the UK and continue to be made by craftspeople. But to say it's impossible to make that car to that standard anywhere else in the world is a fallacy. I do agree that sales would probably suffer if it did but that's perception and image not engineering and quality
arfursleep said:
Sway said:
They're buying the automotive Savile Row suit...
Albeit a suit designed in Germany, mainly made in Germany but finished and sold on Saville Row...I think RR is a great product and a great brand and I'd love it stay here in the UK and continue to be made by craftspeople. But to say it's impossible to make that car to that standard anywhere else in the world is a fallacy. I do agree that sales would probably suffer if it did but that's perception and image not engineering and quality
These cars aren't bought on objective measures. Nowhere near. They are Velbin goods, where perception is absolutely king.
There is a reason why the Maybach sells in far smaller numbers than the Phantom, and it's not due to the objective quality of the car.
Semantics are important when discussing issues such as this. It's not where the cars are "made", it's where they are assembled.
From an economic perspective (i.e. jobs), the major concern is where the supply chain (1st and 2nd Tier) is located.
But in the news we only ever hear of the OEMs. When is Calsonic, Lear, Johnson Controls and others mentioned in national news?
From an economic perspective (i.e. jobs), the major concern is where the supply chain (1st and 2nd Tier) is located.
But in the news we only ever hear of the OEMs. When is Calsonic, Lear, Johnson Controls and others mentioned in national news?
SpeckledJim said:
SantaBarbara said:
SpeckledJim said:
We (the UK, inside the EU) don't generally have deals with the rest of the world, because the EU don't permit us to make our own, and the EU has proved itself incapable of doing it for itself.
So we have great access to the EU, and rubbish access to everywhere else. So in the case of RR, which sells far more cars in the UK + ROW than it does into the EU, the future is (potentially) much better than is currently the case.
Take a market like Singapore which levies something like 300% on imported luxury cars. If we can negotiate that down for our imports to Singapore, in return for a benefit to Singaporean trade into the UK, then the UK luxury car manufacturers (RR, Bentley, McLaren, Morgan, Jaguar) will have a huge benefit in comparison to all the other luxury car manufacturers (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini) who are literally trapped inside the EU with no chance to benefit from this kind of mutually-beneficial freedom.
Just how do the EU prevent us from selling to other countries?So we have great access to the EU, and rubbish access to everywhere else. So in the case of RR, which sells far more cars in the UK + ROW than it does into the EU, the future is (potentially) much better than is currently the case.
Take a market like Singapore which levies something like 300% on imported luxury cars. If we can negotiate that down for our imports to Singapore, in return for a benefit to Singaporean trade into the UK, then the UK luxury car manufacturers (RR, Bentley, McLaren, Morgan, Jaguar) will have a huge benefit in comparison to all the other luxury car manufacturers (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini) who are literally trapped inside the EU with no chance to benefit from this kind of mutually-beneficial freedom.
There's no EU trade deal with the USA, for example. Partly because the French vetoed US box-sets, because they're worried about French teenagers talking too much English. This is the level of bulls
t that we are mired in. They have been negotiating for decades. Decades.If we don't have to accommodate the parlous vocabulary of French teenagers, and any of the other petty worries of the other 27, we should (hopefully) be able to get something useful done for once.
Two clear facts:
1. The US has no major trade deal with the EU, but the US is +50% richer than the EU... The US does just fine without a trade deal.
2. The fall in the Brexit Pound (10-15%) has already way offset any potential extra costs from trade barriers (1-5%)... Britain is already better off.
Cneci said:
Semantics are important when discussing issues such as this. It's not where the cars are "made", it's where they are assembled.
From an economic perspective (i.e. jobs), the major concern is where the supply chain (1st and 2nd Tier) is located.
But in the news we only ever hear of the OEMs. When is Calsonic, Lear, Johnson Controls and others mentioned in national news?
It is HOW they are Created by craftsmanship From an economic perspective (i.e. jobs), the major concern is where the supply chain (1st and 2nd Tier) is located.
But in the news we only ever hear of the OEMs. When is Calsonic, Lear, Johnson Controls and others mentioned in national news?
arfursleep said:
Sway said:
They're buying the automotive Savile Row suit...
Albeit a suit designed in Germany, mainly made in Germany but finished and sold on Saville Row...I think RR is a great product and a great brand and I'd love it stay here in the UK and continue to be made by craftspeople. But to say it's impossible to make that car to that standard anywhere else in the world is a fallacy. I do agree that sales would probably suffer if it did but that's perception and image not engineering and quality
Most of the underlying components are made abroad, in Europe or Asia, and then shipped in for a few low-paid workers to bolt together as a token political gesture. The UK really only does the "final 20%".
Yipper said:
The reality of most of the entire UK car industry today is that it is low-value "final assembly" and not high-value "full manufacturing".
Most of the underlying components are made abroad, in Europe or Asia, and then shipped in for a few low-paid workers to bolt together as a token political gesture. The UK really only does the "final 20%".
Lets see the evidence of that please Most of the underlying components are made abroad, in Europe or Asia, and then shipped in for a few low-paid workers to bolt together as a token political gesture. The UK really only does the "final 20%".
SantaBarbara said:
It is HOW they are Created by craftsmanship
Craft production?Pull the other one, that went out of tick decades ago.
Look at the modern RR assembly line, and it looks no different from Toyota!
Even RR, with their prestige, would not survive against the Maybach's of the world without the adoption of modern manufacturing techniques.
Yipper said:
The reality of most of the entire UK car industry today is that it is low-value "final assembly" and not high-value "full manufacturing".
Most of the underlying components are made abroad, in Europe or Asia, and then shipped in for a few low-paid workers to bolt together as a token political gesture. The UK really only does the "final 20%".
That is nothing more than you simply trying to downplay the car industry in GB. Most of the underlying components are made abroad, in Europe or Asia, and then shipped in for a few low-paid workers to bolt together as a token political gesture. The UK really only does the "final 20%".
Anyone from JLR would tear your argument to pieces. A great deal of the manufacturing industry in the western world relies on componentry made elsewhere. It's globalisation and it's nothing unique to the car industry in the UK.
Cneci said:
SantaBarbara said:
It is HOW they are Created by craftsmanship
Craft production?Pull the other one, that went out of tick decades ago.
Look at the modern RR assembly line, and it looks no different from Toyota!
Even RR, with their prestige, would not survive against the Maybach's of the world without the adoption of modern manufacturing techniques.
The craft shops on the first floor, absolutely not...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree, I think people underestimate how business minded the OEMs are. If they can find parts in spec, cheaper and with shorter lead times, then they will award business to those suppliers.
Location plays second fiddle to that criteria, although it can have an influence.
Yipper said:
The reality of most of the entire UK car industry today is that it is low-value "final assembly" and not high-value "full manufacturing".
Most of the underlying components are made abroad, in Europe or Asia, and then shipped in for a few low-paid workers to bolt together as a token political gesture. The UK really only does the "final 20%".
Really?Most of the underlying components are made abroad, in Europe or Asia, and then shipped in for a few low-paid workers to bolt together as a token political gesture. The UK really only does the "final 20%".
Boom! The oily metal grating beneath my feet trembles at the deep concussion. Boom! Another one before the air can still itself. Every four seconds: boom! The presses – three storeys tall, their foundations dug into the Sunderland rock three storeys down – beat two huge four-tonne dies together as they stamp out shapes in flat steel; a percussive soundtrack to which the rest of the plant must work. Welcome to the press shop.
If, like me, you think of car plants as pristine laboratories in which robots dance over shining metal skeletons in near silence, then the heavy industry of the press shop comes as a bit of a shock. Five storeys high and 165 metres long by 165 metres wide, the shop houses seven presses sitting alongside each othe like a herd of oblong metal dinosaurs, each as big as a house, busily munching through metal.
Inside Nissan's Sunderland plant
Every day, all day, at least a dozen lorries deposit rolls of steel 6ft high and up to 18 tonnes in weight, constantly feeding this beast of a factory. More than 1.7 million panels are punched into existence here each month, the presses bearing down on them with a force the equivalent to 40 tonnes.
21.00 Bodies beautiful
After the brutality of the presses, the Infiniti body shop is like stepping from the dark satanic mills of Victorian invention to the gleaming computer age. Bright, airy and quiet, the newest part of the plant exists to create Q30 bodyshells. The investment in integrating the new Infiniti into the existing industrial ecosystem? A cool £250 million.
Inside Nissan's Sunderland plant
In an hour, 15 Q30s each with 4300 welds (20% more than a Nissan Qashqai) are built by a legion of 141 robots, overseen by just 10 workers – the best of the best, handpicked off the Nissan line, Top Gun style, to ensure these cars meet the loftiest of standards.
A robot working on doors can complete 88 laser welds in 40 seconds. Done the old-fashioned way the same work would take four minutes. Accuracy and consistency are beyond even the most skilled homo sapiens, with class five lasers and guidance systems – the same level of kit Apache attack helicopters use to ensure they hit insurgents and not marines – bringing the precision.
Halfway around the body assembly loop is the framing station, where the platform meets the car’s side and roof frames. This is a crucial moment in the process – any inaccuracy here would compromise every subsequent production process, right down the line. Lasers check the robots’ work, cross-referencing in fractions of a second to the specified ideal and failing to see the funny side of tolerances exceeding fractions of a millimetre.
So striking is the level of calm, fuss-free automation in here that people seem almost redundant. ‘The robots are incredible at doing what is programmed within their parameters, but naturally they can’t adapt,’ explains Richard Scott, production senior supervisor. ‘They are far faster and more efficient than a person, so long as the parts are presented to them perfectly. If a part isn’t on the carrier in perfect position, they can’t make a judgement to move it around to the ideal spot. Thecost of building robots that can do that kind of thinking would be prohibitive.’
While some of the myriad parts each car requires come in from suppliers, and might have been on site for three months at most, the vast majority are made on site, and within a few hours. Richard explains: ‘The plant is mainly self-sufficient, with most sub-assembled parts built by suppliers either on site or within a few miles. Lead times are short; sometimes 24 hours. The plant employs 6700 people but the chain involves some 27000.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 22 September 11:57
SpeckledJim said:
Bentley have had Flying Spurs made by VW in the Phaeton's basically redundant factory in Dresden. Those cars were not sent to markets that were perceived to place a high degree of importance on their car being made in Crewe.
The shells (and Conti GTs) are assembled there, and Bentaygo bodyshells are made in Bratislava.A few complete cars were assembled there, for a couple of years, when demand was higher than Crewe could cope with. But, apart from those cars, final assembly has all been Crewe. So far. I doubt those cars went to any particular markets - apart from those that made for easier logistics.
TooMany2cvs said:
SpeckledJim said:
Bentley have had Flying Spurs made by VW in the Phaeton's basically redundant factory in Dresden. Those cars were not sent to markets that were perceived to place a high degree of importance on their car being made in Crewe.
The shells (and Conti GTs) are assembled there, and Bentaygo bodyshells are made in Bratislava.A few complete cars were assembled there, for a couple of years, when demand was higher than Crewe could cope with. But, apart from those cars, final assembly has all been Crewe. So far. I doubt those cars went to any particular markets - apart from those that made for easier logistics.
TooMany2cvs said:
SpeckledJim said:
I'd gladly stand corrected, but I don't think the German Flying Spurs were sold in the USA or UK.
If you're going to move some production from the UK to Germany, it'd make sense to focus on LHD mainland European spec.I can't remember.
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