Rolls Royce cars to be made in German factory due to brexit?

Rolls Royce cars to be made in German factory due to brexit?

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matchmaker

8,461 posts

199 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
CanAm said:
///ajd said:
He obviously knows sweet FA about real supply chain logistics. He need to speak to some of our real JIT, MRP and Kanban experts here on PH.....

How they hell does he think this will go down with Merkel and the public in Germany? Bringing Rolls Royce to the fatherland? They'll absolutely hate that! They'll no doubt start calling the engines Merlins for added schadenfreude - sorry, glee!
The oldest surviving aircraft engine factory in the world, in Oberursel near Frankfurt, is actually now a branch of Rolls-Royce.
Different company.

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
Sway said:
Let's pick apart the actual statement.

Firstly, the concept that tariffs will increase production costs due to parts being shipped from Germany to here.

Those parts would be eligible for Inward Processing Relief, something that can be enabled by spending £40k on an integrated system to manage the required data and automatic submission to HMRC prior to import.

So no, tariffs will have zero impact on production costs.

There could be an argument that tariffs which would apply to R-R's exports to Europe would have an effect on their success - however the obvious counters to that is that a) a R-R is by no means price sensitive, nor is it good value for money compared to the already existing S Class. B) they hardly export anything to Europe in comparison to their sales to the Middle East, US and far east - which are already subject in the main to tariffs and have had zero impact on their success.

Then there's the idea that R-R could become a 'German car' - the inference being shifting the plant to Germany. As the appeal of a Royce is predominantly the brand, as evidenced by their success when the S Class is actually an objectively better car for a significantly lower price, this is simply a non-starter. The appeal to the volume markets of R-R is heavily driven by the perception of British hand crafted production. Shifting that to a perception of Teutonic process and engineering would likely make a 'better' car, but a materially less appealing one.

On potential supply chain delays/variability - significantly outweighed by the product variability (applies to both MINI and R-R), the potential shift in supply chain lead time variability will be well within the existing calculations. Perhaps a tweak of a low percentage increase in inventory will be required, but certainly not enough to drive material changes in production location - the payback would not be decades but much longer than that...

What's happening, is exactly what you would expect any decent Exec level operator to do - use a change at governmental level to lobby for conditions that materially improve the trading conditions for the company they represent. Quite why there's shock or surprise at the pace of negotiations is unclear - they're following the exact model of every single EU negotiation of any type in the last twenty years!
Genuine question, looking at the applixcations for IPR it seems these need to be submitted to HMRC on a consignment by consignment basis not for a generic releif for all imports. Am I correct?
Yes. However, this is easily and cheaply done automatically - driven by the MRP system.

As an example, it's costing less than £40k for the GTS module configuration and implementation at my current client as part of a rollout of SAP to replace an archaic instance of Oracle. It's less than £15k for a standalone system that'll need a couple of administrators to manage for a company the size of R-R.

If the end use (in this case the finished car) is to be sold internally, then you cannot claim the relief. Currently, that means anything sold within the EU, made of components that originate outside the EU.

For those instances, then my second point about price elasticity with the R-R product applies...

mjb1

2,552 posts

158 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Getragdogleg said:
Lets not forget that the unpreparedness for what the single market actually meant to the average Brit in the 70s is most of the reason why we don't have Rover, Leyland, Jaguar, Rolls Royce and many others as British companies anymore.

We made st cars and rested on our laurels, then when the single market kicked in the flood gates opened to the Germans and the French to sell us a superior product.

If we were sensible we would have reacted but we did not, and then we could not because it was too late and we were not allowed because the rules had changed and that was that.

We were victims of a very long and well thought out plan, a plan that has had a bit of a hit when we voted out so expect lots of trouble like this.
We made some st cars in the 70's, but there was also a fair bit of decent stuff. Certainly French cars were no better (and still pretty st now in the main). The difference is that their government stood by them and recognised the national value of their industry. Then there's the patriotism that makes the market for their cars - French people generally bought French cars, we just bought whatever was cheapest. And as a nation, we are far too modest of our own stuff. The French media would never have ridiculed their own automotive industry and derided their 'own' cars like we have done here. Similar situation in Germany, although their cars were better built and engineered - they were all average or better, seemed to avoid bringing any total dogs to market.

Sway said:
Then there's the idea that R-R could become a 'German car' - the inference being shifting the plant to Germany. As the appeal of a Royce is predominantly the brand, as evidenced by their success when the S Class is actually an objectively better car for a significantly lower price, this is simply a non-starter. The appeal to the volume markets of R-R is heavily driven by the perception of British hand crafted production. Shifting that to a perception of Teutonic process and engineering would likely make a 'better' car, but a materially less appealing one.
And here we are talking about British brands and craftsmanship, which pretty well contradicts the idea that British made stuff that is/was st. Fact is, it's only us that thinks our stuff was total st, it wasn't the foreign perception. They just didn't buy British for patriotic reasons, and because their own stuff was subsidised by their government. At the top end of the market the prestige brands (Rolls, Bentley, even Jaguar) always sold pretty well abroad, even in the 70's and 80's when Jaguar in particular wasn't making stuff up to the level of their brand perception.

However, I think that the Rolls Royce (and probably Bentley too) brands are so established, that moving their assembly (and it sounds like design, development, most of the manufacture is all German now anyway) to continental Europe wouldn't destroy the brand. Yes it might harm it a bit, but surely most people that buy these cars are aware that they're essentially a German product anyway?


mx5nut

5,404 posts

81 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Rude-boy said:
The doubt and uncertainly that BMW is talking about is as i direct result of the self defeating attitude of the Remoaners. The less effort that they put into trying to make a success of Brexit and the more strife and struggle they can cause, together with their constant stream of looking on the darkest possible side and shouting "We're all doomed I tell thee" the more they will get their wish of the worst possible Brexit.

So to be honest it would appear that the Remoaners will get their way - beggaring the Country to ensure that they are proven 'right'.
We had years of the anti EU brigade talking the country down, but we didn't blame all our problems on them putting "less effort" in - we got on with things and thrived as a country.

The Brexiteers (at least those who will still admit to it!) got their way and won. They should be getting on with it, not passing the blame when things go wrong to the losing side.

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
mjb1 said:
However, I think that the Rolls Royce (and probably Bentley too) brands are so established, that moving their assembly (and it sounds like design, development, most of the manufacture is all German now anyway) to continental Europe wouldn't destroy the brand. Yes it might harm it a bit, but surely most people that buy these cars are aware that they're essentially a German product anyway?
The thing is, they're not.

R-R/BMW have been very clever in playing to strengths, and knowing their market.

All the stuff that the buyers frankly don't care about, such as powertrain, body in white manufacture, hvac and infotainment engineering is done in Germany. Mostly using common elements from the BMW range.

However, all the stuff that makes a Rolls-Royce a Rolls-Royce in the eyes of the buyer, are front and centre of the Goodwood plant.

Paint (and finishing).
All the interior stuff such as the bespoke-ish leathershop, wood, headlinings, trim and interior fit out is all done very visibly in Goodwood, using a mix of old and new techniques, tools and materials.

Yipper

5,964 posts

89 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Sway said:
mjb1 said:
However, I think that the Rolls Royce (and probably Bentley too) brands are so established, that moving their assembly (and it sounds like design, development, most of the manufacture is all German now anyway) to continental Europe wouldn't destroy the brand. Yes it might harm it a bit, but surely most people that buy these cars are aware that they're essentially a German product anyway?
The thing is, they're not.

R-R/BMW have been very clever in playing to strengths, and knowing their market.

All the stuff that the buyers frankly don't care about, such as powertrain, body in white manufacture, hvac and infotainment engineering is done in Germany. Mostly using common elements from the BMW range.

However, all the stuff that makes a Rolls-Royce a Rolls-Royce in the eyes of the buyer, are front and centre of the Goodwood plant.

Paint (and finishing).
All the interior stuff such as the bespoke-ish leathershop, wood, headlinings, trim and interior fit out is all done very visibly in Goodwood, using a mix of old and new techniques, tools and materials.
A RR today is ~70% made in Germany / China and ~30% made in the UK.

Rollers haven't been "British" for years.

RR only employs about 1.5k staff in the UK. It is a tiny factory. BMW has 50-75k staff in Germany, alone.

Murph7355

37,645 posts

255 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
chrispmartha said:
Well a large amount of the population are unhappy about it, are you saying they should just shut up and put up? As stated if that's the attitude you want you wouldn't have had a referendum in the first place you can't have it both ways
In answer, did I actually say that?

The hypothesis was that moaning makes no difference at all in context of what was being spoken about. Not my hypothesis.

If that's the case then why moan?

If on the other hand there is a belief it can make a difference (which surely the people moaning must believe?), keep moaning until it does.

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Yipper said:
Sway said:
mjb1 said:
However, I think that the Rolls Royce (and probably Bentley too) brands are so established, that moving their assembly (and it sounds like design, development, most of the manufacture is all German now anyway) to continental Europe wouldn't destroy the brand. Yes it might harm it a bit, but surely most people that buy these cars are aware that they're essentially a German product anyway?
The thing is, they're not.

R-R/BMW have been very clever in playing to strengths, and knowing their market.

All the stuff that the buyers frankly don't care about, such as powertrain, body in white manufacture, hvac and infotainment engineering is done in Germany. Mostly using common elements from the BMW range.

However, all the stuff that makes a Rolls-Royce a Rolls-Royce in the eyes of the buyer, are front and centre of the Goodwood plant.

Paint (and finishing).
All the interior stuff such as the bespoke-ish leathershop, wood, headlinings, trim and interior fit out is all done very visibly in Goodwood, using a mix of old and new techniques, tools and materials.
A RR today is ~70% made in Germany / China and ~30% made in the UK.

Rollers haven't been "British" for years.

RR only employs about 1.5k staff in the UK. It is a tiny factory. BMW has 50-75k staff in Germany, alone.
How does that contradict a single thing I've posted?

How many of those 50-75k staff working for BMW are directly producing R-R content?

SantaBarbara

3,244 posts

107 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
They have a name plate alongside each manufacturing bay with the name of the customer on it

Sylvaforever

2,212 posts

97 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Rude-boy said:
///ajd said:
Smiler. said:
Well you obviously can. Don't you ever get bored of it?
It seems not yet.

Any comment on the Rolls story, or just attacking the messenger today?
Yes I do.

It would seem that Project Fear on behalf of the "no, no, no you should not have voted that way' party is not only in full swing but is also having an effect.

The doubt and uncertainly that BMW is talking about is as i direct result of the self defeating attitude of the Remoaners. The less effort that they put into trying to make a success of Brexit and the more strife and struggle they can cause, together with their constant stream of looking on the darkest possible side and shouting "We're all doomed I tell thee" the more they will get their wish of the worst possible Brexit.

So to be honest it would appear that the Remoaners will get their way - beggaring the Country to ensure that they are proven 'right'.

As someone who voted to Remain myself i am utterly disgusted in the behaviour of the Remoaners and their myopic attitudes. There will be Brexit, stop fooling yourselves into thinking that you can reverse the vote by trying to make the situation as bad as it possibly can be.

Cretins.
clap

aeropilot

34,286 posts

226 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
SantaBarbara said:
Unless the method f construction of Rolls Royce cars has changed over the last twenty years,
Each car is hand made by craftsmen and women, and then taken out for test drives by the same craftsmen
The method of construction has changed dramatically in the last 20 years......

Each car is hand assembled would be more accurate, they certainly are no longer hand-made in the old traditional coachworks description that applied to old RR's made at Crewe.




Murph7355

37,645 posts

255 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
mx5nut said:
...
We had years of the anti EU brigade talking the country down, but we didn't blame all our problems on them putting "less effort" in - we got on with things and thrived as a country...
.
I don't think the anti-EU brigade were talking the country down. The clue is in their brigade title...

The "problems" argument doesn't really work that way round either.

TTwiggy

11,499 posts

203 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
SantaBarbara said:
TTwiggy said:
Surely 'public opinion' is that 52% of those who voted are in favour of Brexit and thus their opinion is all that matters? Unless of course you are conceding that that's too small a majority to properly carry such significant decisions?
Are you still harping on about that?
Pipe down son.

SantaBarbara

3,244 posts

107 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
amgmcqueen said:
kurt535 said:
''The most British of British cars may no longer be a British car...
Morgan?
Åland Land. Rover

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Sway said:
Yes. However, this is easily and cheaply done automatically - driven by the MRP system.

As an example, it's costing less than £40k for the GTS module configuration and implementation at my current client as part of a rollout of SAP to replace an archaic instance of Oracle. It's less than £15k for a standalone system that'll need a couple of administrators to manage for a company the size of R-R.

If the end use (in this case the finished car) is to be sold internally, then you cannot claim the relief. Currently, that means anything sold within the EU, made of components that originate outside the EU.

For those instances, then my second point about price elasticity with the R-R product applies...
A few more questions because I tend to find the devil is it the detail

1. You say you can only use the system if you are exporting the part again. So post brexit with no deal how about if you do not know if you will export or not. As an example a car assembler will import gearboxes. When the supplier is shipping the assembler may not know if they will go into a UK sold car or a EU sold car (an export).

2. The system is an HMRC system do you know:
a) Is it available in Calais/Dover and if not is it easy to install.
b) How long does it take to process? Lorries maybe arriving at the channel within hours of leaving the EU exporter.
c) What’s the capacity of the system if we have a hard border at the channel?
b) I assume HMRC have to check the documentation for every package crossing into the UK from the EU.
d) How would this work with mixed loads in a lorry some may be covered by the system others may not?



Smiler.

11,752 posts

229 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
SantaBarbara said:
TTwiggy said:
Surely 'public opinion' is that 52% of those who voted are in favour of Brexit and thus their opinion is all that matters? Unless of course you are conceding that that's too small a majority to properly carry such significant decisions?
Are you still harping on about that?
More a case of


TTwiggy

11,499 posts

203 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Smiler. said:
SantaBarbara said:
TTwiggy said:
Surely 'public opinion' is that 52% of those who voted are in favour of Brexit and thus their opinion is all that matters? Unless of course you are conceding that that's too small a majority to properly carry such significant decisions?
Are you still harping on about that?
More a case of

You're both confusing me with someone who gives a st one way or the other about the EU. I've made my position very clear on several threads but I'm happy to repeat it if you missed it smile

Smiler.

11,752 posts

229 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
TTwiggy said:
Smiler. said:
SantaBarbara said:
TTwiggy said:
Surely 'public opinion' is that 52% of those who voted are in favour of Brexit and thus their opinion is all that matters? Unless of course you are conceding that that's too small a majority to properly carry such significant decisions?
Are you still harping on about that?
More a case of

You're both confusing me with someone who gives a st one way or the other about the EU. I've made my position very clear on several threads but I'm happy to repeat it if you missed it smile
For someone who doesn't give a st, you seem very eager to air your views about it.

Still, free country & all that.

smile

TTwiggy

11,499 posts

203 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Smiler. said:
For someone who doesn't give a st, you seem very eager to air your views about it.

Still, free country & all that.

smile
That's rather the point of this forum isn't it? It would be odd if nobody aired any views about anything.

I think that leaving is a mistake and will exercise my right to air that view. What I'm not doing is moaning about the result, denying we're leaving (probably wink) or demanding another 'go'. So you can put your little violin away.

Smiler.

11,752 posts

229 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
TTwiggy said:
Smiler. said:
For someone who doesn't give a st, you seem very eager to air your views about it.

Still, free country & all that.

smile
That's rather the point of this forum isn't it? It would be odd if nobody aired any views about anything.

I think that leaving is a mistake and will exercise my right to air that view. What I'm not doing is moaning about the result, denying we're leaving (probably wink) or demanding another 'go'. So you can put your little violin away.
So you give a bit of a st then.

And it's not my violin.


smile