And...It's Spain.. will it kick off ?
Discussion
chrisgtx said:
I'm working in Spain now and one of the locals has just shown me pictures of a tank on a low loader and military vehicles allegedly on the main route into Barcelona.
This is crazy. There's no way a democratic nation can persuade one of its regions out of taking a democratic vote by pointing tanks at them. If they stop this vote by force, they can expect the next attempt to be stronger and much, much more sophisticated.If the powers-that-be in Catalonia have decided to have a vote, I can't see how Madrid can stop it by force without looking like exactly the reason to leave that the Catalans might be perceiving.
Self-defeating.
SpeckledJim said:
This is crazy. There's no way a democratic nation can persuade one of its regions out of taking a democratic vote by pointing tanks at them. If they stop this vote by force, they can expect the next attempt to be stronger and much, much more sophisticated.
If the powers-that-be in Catalonia have decided to have a vote, I can't see how Madrid can stop it by force without looking like exactly the reason to leave that the Catalans might be perceiving.
Self-defeating.
The point is it isn"t a democratic vote. It's an illegal vote that has been ruled so by the Tribunal Constitucional. If you want to talk about democracy, what about the probable majority of people who want Catalunya to remain within Spain who can"t actually express that point of view at the moment without being threatened with violence? Many have said that they won't vote in an illegal plebiscite.If the powers-that-be in Catalonia have decided to have a vote, I can't see how Madrid can stop it by force without looking like exactly the reason to leave that the Catalans might be perceiving.
Self-defeating.
As for tanks on the street - it just isn't going to happen. The memories of 23-F here (when the military did put tanks on the street) still provokes strong emotions nearly forty years later.
ou sont les biscuits said:
he point is it isn"t a democratic vote. It's an illegal vote that has been ruled so by the Tribunal Constitucional. If you want to talk about democracy, what about the probable majority of people who want Catalunya to remain within Spain who can"t actually express that point of view at the moment without being threatened with violence? Many have said that they won't vote in an illegal plebiscite.
As for tanks on the street - it just isn't going to happen. The memories of 23-F here (when the military did put tanks on the street) still provokes strong emotions nearly forty years later.
It might well be illegal, but the reality is there is a huge number of (powerful) people who're telling Madrid "we want to tell you, formally, what we think" and Madrid are saying very clearly "we're not at all interested in what you think".As for tanks on the street - it just isn't going to happen. The memories of 23-F here (when the military did put tanks on the street) still provokes strong emotions nearly forty years later.
And that's an awkward situation to adopt as govt. policy in a democracy.
The illegality of the actual action of having a vote might be used to stop it happening, but it won't do anything to rectify the situation. It'll probably make things worse.
Great fun, this.
SpeckledJim said:
It might well be illegal, but the reality is there is a huge number of (powerful) people who're telling Madrid "we want to tell you, formally, what we think" and Madrid are saying very clearly "we're not at all interested in what you think".
And that's an awkward situation to adopt as govt. policy in a democracy.
The illegality of the actual action of having a vote might be used to stop it happening, but it won't do anything to rectify the situation. It'll probably make things worse.
Great fun, this.
I think it might be helpful if you were here. You'd understand that the government in Madrid are most definitely not saying we aren't interested in what you think. Quite the opposite. But, first and foremost they are saying that the Constitution (to which all of Spain signed up, including the devolved assemblies) must be respected. And that is something that even the most hard line 'indepe' ought to be in agreement with.And that's an awkward situation to adopt as govt. policy in a democracy.
The illegality of the actual action of having a vote might be used to stop it happening, but it won't do anything to rectify the situation. It'll probably make things worse.
Great fun, this.
Reuters said:
Acting on court orders, police have also raided printers, newspaper offices and private delivery companies in a search for campaign literature, instruction manuals for manning voting stations and ballot boxes.
Blimey. Raiding private companies and confiscating campaign literature by force. Whether it's in accordance with the law of the land or not, it's terrible PR. Mugabe-esque
ou sont les biscuits said:
SpeckledJim said:
It might well be illegal, but the reality is there is a huge number of (powerful) people who're telling Madrid "we want to tell you, formally, what we think" and Madrid are saying very clearly "we're not at all interested in what you think".
And that's an awkward situation to adopt as govt. policy in a democracy.
The illegality of the actual action of having a vote might be used to stop it happening, but it won't do anything to rectify the situation. It'll probably make things worse.
Great fun, this.
I think it might be helpful if you were here. You'd understand that the government in Madrid are most definitely not saying we aren't interested in what you think. Quite the opposite. But, first and foremost they are saying that the Constitution (to which all of Spain signed up, including the devolved assemblies) must be respected. And that is something that even the most hard line 'indepe' ought to be in agreement with.And that's an awkward situation to adopt as govt. policy in a democracy.
The illegality of the actual action of having a vote might be used to stop it happening, but it won't do anything to rectify the situation. It'll probably make things worse.
Great fun, this.
But how else do you change a constitution, if that's what you want to do?
Kermit power said:
I'm not sure that would work either, unfortunately. There was a period in the 90s or early 00s when CiU, the Catalan Nationalist party held the balance of power in the Spanish parliament, so were massively over-represented in the cabinet and were showered with goodies. It still didn't stop us getting to where we are now.
Most of this is down to one of the other really big differences between here and Spain...
We have the whinging Scots who like to bang on about how nasty Edward Longshanks was to them 700 years ago, and revel in picking that particular scab of inferiority with their national song about how they almost won something a few hundred years ago, whilst wondering if they'll ever be good enough to almost win something again.
In Spain, on the other hand, the brutal repression of regional identities by Franco's regime is very much still a living memory. I used to know a Galician guy whose earliest memory was of his father being clubbed unconscious with rifle butts by the Guardia Civil whilst he was standing next to him because he refused to speak Castilian Spanish instead of Gallego. My colleague's father wasn't being deliberately obstinant or trying to become a Nationalist hero for Galicia. He just didn't actually speak Castilian Spanish.
It's really rather ironic, but Franco's efforts to forge a Spanish national identity have done more to bolster independent regional identies than any other actions imaginable! Before he started, the regional languages in Spain were in a slow decline. Now, every school in Catalonia teaches in Catalan, with Castilian a second language, and (assuming it's still the same as when I lived there in the 90s), place name signs at the entrance to towns in Castilian will almost invariably have it spray-painted out and replaced with the local dialect name if it's different.
Compare that to France which also, until relatively recently, had a lot of regional languages. They never tried to tell people they couldn't speak their languages, they simply said that if people wanted their children educated by the State, it would be in French, and if they wanted to work for the State, they would have to speak French. Roll forward a few generations, and only Breton is really hanging on at all. I found out much of this after seeing a sound and light spectacle in Carcassone in the language of Occitan, which I'd never heard of, but could broadly understand as a result of speaking French & Spanish. One of my parents' friends, who is in his late 60s now told me that he could understand it but didn't really speak it, his children didn't understand it at all, his parents spoke it fluently, and his grandparents didn't really speak French!
You simply cannot look at the Catalan independence movement without also looking at the Franco era.
Nice Juan.Most of this is down to one of the other really big differences between here and Spain...
We have the whinging Scots who like to bang on about how nasty Edward Longshanks was to them 700 years ago, and revel in picking that particular scab of inferiority with their national song about how they almost won something a few hundred years ago, whilst wondering if they'll ever be good enough to almost win something again.
In Spain, on the other hand, the brutal repression of regional identities by Franco's regime is very much still a living memory. I used to know a Galician guy whose earliest memory was of his father being clubbed unconscious with rifle butts by the Guardia Civil whilst he was standing next to him because he refused to speak Castilian Spanish instead of Gallego. My colleague's father wasn't being deliberately obstinant or trying to become a Nationalist hero for Galicia. He just didn't actually speak Castilian Spanish.
It's really rather ironic, but Franco's efforts to forge a Spanish national identity have done more to bolster independent regional identies than any other actions imaginable! Before he started, the regional languages in Spain were in a slow decline. Now, every school in Catalonia teaches in Catalan, with Castilian a second language, and (assuming it's still the same as when I lived there in the 90s), place name signs at the entrance to towns in Castilian will almost invariably have it spray-painted out and replaced with the local dialect name if it's different.
Compare that to France which also, until relatively recently, had a lot of regional languages. They never tried to tell people they couldn't speak their languages, they simply said that if people wanted their children educated by the State, it would be in French, and if they wanted to work for the State, they would have to speak French. Roll forward a few generations, and only Breton is really hanging on at all. I found out much of this after seeing a sound and light spectacle in Carcassone in the language of Occitan, which I'd never heard of, but could broadly understand as a result of speaking French & Spanish. One of my parents' friends, who is in his late 60s now told me that he could understand it but didn't really speak it, his children didn't understand it at all, his parents spoke it fluently, and his grandparents didn't really speak French!
You simply cannot look at the Catalan independence movement without also looking at the Franco era.
SpeckledJim said:
Thanks, I'm sure you're more up to speed with it than I am.
But how else do you change a constitution, if that's what you want to do?
Through dialogue. What you don't do, IMVHO, as a party with a minority in the Catalan Parlament is organise an illegal vote and state that if you win it you will declare an independent Catalan Republic the day after that.But how else do you change a constitution, if that's what you want to do?
ou sont les biscuits said:
SpeckledJim said:
Thanks, I'm sure you're more up to speed with it than I am.
But how else do you change a constitution, if that's what you want to do?
Through dialogue. What you don't do, IMVHO, as a party with a minority in the Catalan Parlament is organise an illegal vote and state that if you win it you will declare an independent Catalan Republic the day after that.But how else do you change a constitution, if that's what you want to do?
It's all a bit, umm, direct though, I grant you.
But surely the canny play is, now, to disavow and discredit the vote, rather than to take physical interventions to stop it happening?
SpeckledJim said:
Reuters said:
Acting on court orders, police have also raided printers, newspaper offices and private delivery companies in a search for campaign literature, instruction manuals for manning voting stations and ballot boxes.
Blimey. Raiding private companies and confiscating campaign literature by force. Whether it's in accordance with the law of the land or not, it's terrible PR. Mugabe-esque
Several people have been arrested on suspicion of organising and using public funding for an illegal referendum, the equivalent offence in the UK would probably be malfeasance.
ou sont les biscuits said:
SpeckledJim said:
Reuters said:
Acting on court orders, police have also raided printers, newspaper offices and private delivery companies in a search for campaign literature, instruction manuals for manning voting stations and ballot boxes.
Blimey. Raiding private companies and confiscating campaign literature by force. Whether it's in accordance with the law of the land or not, it's terrible PR. Mugabe-esque
Several people have been arrested on suspicion of organising and using public funding for an illegal referendum, the equivalent offence in the UK would probably be malfeasance.
I don't envy the Spanish authorities this problem.
The problem with an illegal referendum is that realisticly only those motivated for change will risk the consequences of vote, whereas those wanting to stick with the current status will be unlikely to risk voting. So even if they go ahead and get an overwhelming yes vote, there is no way to show how honestly representative the vote actually is. The best they could say is that 1 million people want that change and not 70% of the people want change.
Just out of interest if Spain dies and we end up with a load of new states, who gets landed with the debt? (Thinking back to Scotland's atitude towards UK debt during the run up the the vote)
Just out of interest if Spain dies and we end up with a load of new states, who gets landed with the debt? (Thinking back to Scotland's atitude towards UK debt during the run up the the vote)
KrazyIvan said:
The problem with an illegal referendum is that realisticly only those motivated for change will risk the consequences of vote, whereas those wanting to stick with the current status will be unlikely to risk voting. So even if they go ahead and get an overwhelming yes vote, there is no way to show how honestly representative the vote actually is. The best they could say is that 1 million people want that change and not 70% of the people want change.
Entirely true, but the truth isn't as important as the powerful "70%" optical illusion that that kind of result will give their campaign. It's no-win for the authorities now.KrazyIvan said:
Just out of interest if Spain dies and we end up with a load of new states, who gets landed with the debt? (Think back ro Scotland's atitude towards UK debt during the run up the the vote)
No idea. And what will be the consequences for the wider EU if new-Spain can't pay it's old debts, and Catalonia won't pay 'old-Spain's' debts.Fascinating times.
Edited for formatting.
Edited by SpeckledJim on Friday 22 September 12:13
Digga said:
Of course, there's the perennial issue of Basque separatism too. This is surely going to encourage a renewed campaign for their separation too.
As I've said on the EU and Brexit threads, it always struck me a perverse that nations that had only, actually been nations (let alone democracies) for such relatively short spells have the nerve to criticise the UK or Brexit. Here is a perfect example.
I'm pretty sure that in most significant ways of looking at these things, Spain has been a nation for significantly longer than the UK, hasn't it?As I've said on the EU and Brexit threads, it always struck me a perverse that nations that had only, actually been nations (let alone democracies) for such relatively short spells have the nerve to criticise the UK or Brexit. Here is a perfect example.
psi310398 said:
In the scheme of things, I don't see why Catalonia should be any less viable as an independent nation than, say (if we are looking at existing EU nations), Slovakia or Denmark, let alone Belgium or Luxembourg.
You're asking the wrong question. The question you need to ask is whether the rest of Spain would be viable as an independent nation.ou sont les biscuits said:
SpeckledJim said:
Reuters said:
Acting on court orders, police have also raided printers, newspaper offices and private delivery companies in a search for campaign literature, instruction manuals for manning voting stations and ballot boxes.
Blimey. Raiding private companies and confiscating campaign literature by force. Whether it's in accordance with the law of the land or not, it's terrible PR. Mugabe-esque
Several people have been arrested on suspicion of organising and using public funding for an illegal referendum, the equivalent offence in the UK would probably be malfeasance.
Why don't they just say "if you want to go to the time and effort of doing all this, fill your boots, but given that it's unconstitutional, no actions will be taken on the basis of the result"?
Kermit power said:
Digga said:
Of course, there's the perennial issue of Basque separatism too. This is surely going to encourage a renewed campaign for their separation too.
As I've said on the EU and Brexit threads, it always struck me a perverse that nations that had only, actually been nations (let alone democracies) for such relatively short spells have the nerve to criticise the UK or Brexit. Here is a perfect example.
I'm pretty sure that in most significant ways of looking at these things, Spain has been a nation for significantly longer than the UK, hasn't it?As I've said on the EU and Brexit threads, it always struck me a perverse that nations that had only, actually been nations (let alone democracies) for such relatively short spells have the nerve to criticise the UK or Brexit. Here is a perfect example.
I find it interesting that for all the talk of "democracy", what all modern separatist movements (e.g. nats in Scotland, Catalonia etc.) seem to offer really is just the promise of more money.
I've yet to hear of one (within a proper existing democracy) that offers the concept of separation fro the purposes of pure democracy, rather its "we'll be better off on our own".
Take the financial benefits away and the majority won't vote for it.
It's all about money, not democracy.
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