And...It's Spain.. will it kick off ?
Discussion
The UK has a constitution. The claim that it doesn't is a misconception. The UK constitution consists of a group of documents and a collection of conventions. The documents include the Bill of Rights, the Acts of Union, the Representation of the People Acts, the Parliament Acts, (currently) the European Communities Act, and the Human Rights Act. The conventions are described in textbooks on the constitution and sources such as Erskine May, the Parliamentary handbook. For an example of the UK constitution in action, see the recent Article 50 litigation.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 23 October 11:31
Ken Figenus said:
Breadvan72 said:
The Constitution was drafted by elected member of the Cortes (the Parliament) and approved in a referendum (91.8% of voters in favour) . Why do you think it was written by the army?
Maybe because it wasn't the first draft - just the latest! I'm sure those chosen by the state to draft it were main Spanish state friendly - even if there was one Catalan (?) or at least Catalan party member on the team....
On the Catalonian referendum, there seems to be a perception here that there is a majority in favour of Catalonia seceding from Spain, but can we know that? Polls suggest that the Catalonian population is split roughly fifty fifty on the issue. It appears that stay in Spain voters didn't vote in the referendum. Madrid, meanwhile, has massively cocked this situation up.
ou sont les biscuits said:
Dear oh dear. In amongst this diatribe, can you remind me which TV stations have been shut down? Can you tell me who has been imprisoned without trial? Excluding the pair of Catalan nationalists who have been remanded in custody by a judge because there is a legitimate concern about them a) destroying evidence and b) repeating the behaviour that got them arrested in the first place if they were to be set free?
Can you just confirm that we don't remand people in custody in the UK, or are they all political prisoners too?
That's not a diatribe! These are observations based on fact and a comparison. I'd need to get much more warmed up for a diatribe!Can you just confirm that we don't remand people in custody in the UK, or are they all political prisoners too?
We'll pick up this in a week...
If the Catalan people do go for independence can I ask what currency would they use, who's central bank as a lender of last resort, in fact all the same questions being asked during the Scottish independence debate really.
While I accept that the economies are in a somewhat different position as Scotland in the UK and Catalonia in Spain but other than that most of the objections still stand.
Bad management by Spain!
While I accept that the economies are in a somewhat different position as Scotland in the UK and Catalonia in Spain but other than that most of the objections still stand.
Bad management by Spain!
Breadvan72 said:
So which TV stations have been closed down and who has been detained unlawfully?
I used the phrase "that is all happening/about to happen in Catalonia..."Here's a piece on imminent taking over the media: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/spain-tak...
The two Jordis are in jail. The prosecutor argues that they mobilized people on referendum day, asking citizens to protest in front of polling stations, thus impeding police officers from closing them down.
This is all letter of the law stuff and in the Castilians interests - to some that is enough, and that's that. But do remember that many good people have broken bad laws. That's how society often progresses from stuff like 100% legal slavery, 100% legal apartheid - all done in the law makers and power brokers' best interests and undemocratic.
Breadvan72 said:
So which TV stations have been closed down and who has been detained unlawfully?
No TV stations have been closed/taken over yet, because the measures haven't been put in place at the moment, that happens later this week when the senate votes it into operation.Once that is done, there is a statute in the Art155 that allows them to take over local media and internet services, if you watch the Marr program from this Sunday, the Spanish foreign secretary stated they will shut down the pro Catalonia TV station.
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/spain-tak...
So far two politicians are on remand, held under the excuse that if they were released they could destroy evidence. That's a bulls
t reason as far as I am concerned.Thanks, the threat to the TV station is worrying. I am mildly but not quite as worried by the arrests, because there still appears to be due process available in Spanish Courts, and if the reasons for detention are no good, a Court may say so in due course. If the due process position changes, I will be more worried.
Breadvan72 said:
Thanks, the threat to the TV station is worrying. I am mildly but not quite as worried by the arrests, because there still appears to be due process available in Spanish Courts, and if the reasons for detention are no good, a Court may say so in due course. If the due process position changes, I will be more worried.
If due process isn't followed, then it would be a shoe-in for a case to be taken to the ECourtHR under articles 5/6/7, surely?Somebody may have threatened something about the TV stations in an interview - doesn't mean it will ever happen.
TooMany2cvs said:
Somebody may have threatened something about the TV stations in an interview - doesn't mean it will ever happen.
Actually, Rajoy has form: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug...
TooMany2cvs said:
If due process isn't followed, then it would be a shoe-in for a case to be taken to the ECourtHR under articles 5/6/7, surely?
...
Yes, but the road to the Strasbourg Court is long. There would be in the meantime a real concern if arrest of politicians becomes a norm in Spain. ...
I see a lot of comment in NPE saying that the Spain problem is the fault of the EU, or describing Spain as an avatar of the EU*. That seems to me inaccurate, although I think that the EU should have condemned the Spanish police actions of a few weeks ago. The problems of Spain look to me to be more Spanish (and Catalan) than EU. The shadow of Franco is still present.
* Mega unscientific subjective impression: many pro Brexit posters seem to be also anti Scottish independence but pro Catalan independence. Go figure.
psi310398 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Somebody may have threatened something about the TV stations in an interview - doesn't mean it will ever happen.
Actually, Rajoy has form: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug...
There's a big difference between leaning on the management of the state broadcaster to get shot of certain individual journos and blocking independent media outlets completely, though.
Breadvan72 said:
The UK has a constitution. The claim that it doesn't is a misconception. The UK constitution consists of a group of documents and a collection of conventions. The documents include the Bill of Rights, the Acts of Union, the Representation of the People Acts, the Parliament Acts, (currently) the European Communities Act, and the Human Rights Act. The conventions are described in textbooks on the constitution and sources such as Erskine May, the Parliamentary handbook. For an example of the UK constitution in action, see the recent Article 50 litigation.
I'm sure you can decifer why not having a single document that makes up a British constitution is a good thing?Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 23 October 11:31
John145 said:
Breadvan72 said:
The UK has a constitution. The claim that it doesn't is a misconception. The UK constitution consists of a group of documents and a collection of conventions. The documents include the Bill of Rights, the Acts of Union, the Representation of the People Acts, the Parliament Acts, (currently) the European Communities Act, and the Human Rights Act. The conventions are described in textbooks on the constitution and sources such as Erskine May, the Parliamentary handbook. For an example of the UK constitution in action, see the recent Article 50 litigation.
I'm sure you can decifer why not having a single document that makes up a British constitution is a good thing?It's not as if it doesn't all exist - so might as well be collated into a single place.
Breadvan72 said:
Mega unscientific subjective impression: many pro Brexit posters seem to be also anti Scottish independence but pro Catalan independence. Go figure.
It's possible to be in favour of self-determination in general while considering secession in a particular case a bad idea. In which case the honest course of action is to argue one's point, but accept the democratic outcome.In the case of Catalonia, I've not seen strong opinion here either way about the benefits or not of secession, but there does seem to be a consensus among, as you say, the usual suspects, that a proper poll should take place.
ISTR poll results suggesting that had the rUK had a vote along with the Scots, Alba would even now be petitioning to join the EU...
TooMany2cvs said:
Obfuscation? Jobs for constitutional lawyers? I have to admit I'm struggling beyond those.
It's not as if it doesn't all exist - so might as well be collated into a single place.
It avoids situations such as where Spain finds itself and where America has been for an age:It's not as if it doesn't all exist - so might as well be collated into a single place.
A change to the constitution is so fundamental that there are many political restrictions to making amendments which means progression is slow/impossible.
In the case of gun control, we changed it as required. America's position doesn't need repeating.
In the case of independence we enacted a law to allow this as there was a concerted will of the people.
Neither of which were constitutional crisis.
John145 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Obfuscation? Jobs for constitutional lawyers? I have to admit I'm struggling beyond those.
It's not as if it doesn't all exist - so might as well be collated into a single place.
It avoids situations such as where Spain finds itself and where America has been for an age:It's not as if it doesn't all exist - so might as well be collated into a single place.
A change to the constitution is so fundamental that there are many political restrictions to making amendments which means progression is slow/impossible.
In the case of gun control, we changed it as required. America's position doesn't need repeating.
In the case of independence we enacted a law to allow this as there was a concerted will of the people.
Neither of which were constitutional crisis.
It's all down to the political will existing.
John145 said:
Breadvan72 said:
The UK has a constitution. The claim that it doesn't is a misconception. The UK constitution consists of a group of documents and a collection of conventions. The documents include the Bill of Rights, the Acts of Union, the Representation of the People Acts, the Parliament Acts, (currently) the European Communities Act, and the Human Rights Act. The conventions are described in textbooks on the constitution and sources such as Erskine May, the Parliamentary handbook. For an example of the UK constitution in action, see the recent Article 50 litigation.
I'm sure you can decifer why not having a single document that makes up a British constitution is a good thing?Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 23 October 11:31
TooMany2cvs said:
Umm, surely it's just as easy to change a written constitution as to change an unwritten one?
It's all down to the political will existing.
The body of law that forms the UK Constitution is no harder to alter that the law on foxhunting - all that is required is an Act of Parliament. Anything else would violate the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty.It's all down to the political will existing.
Changing the US Constitution is much more difficult; supermajorities in both Congress and Senate, plus the agreement of 3/4 of States' legislatures is required. I would imagine the Spanish one isn't much easier.
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