Labour Conference....total maddness or even possable ?
Discussion
That is possible, but I am not sure without researching the point. Land Rover was initially aimed at farmers, to help revitalise agriculture. An early Land Rover is basically a road usable tractor with passenger and load capacity. The military did, however, take an interest in Land Rovers early on, and they quickly showed their usefulness in military and civilian applications in places such as Africa and Australia.
Breadvan72 said:
things went quite well for quite a bit
andymadmak said:
Can you imagine the state of modern day telecommunications in this country if the GPO was still in charge of it?
I'd rather not!Murph7355 said:
...
I doubt Sadiq would get past the Momentum lot. The other Milliband is who they need. But I doubt he would get past Momentum either.
A split in the Party looks likely at some point in the near future.I doubt Sadiq would get past the Momentum lot. The other Milliband is who they need. But I doubt he would get past Momentum either.
Political cleavage ahoy.
Breadvan72 said:
Oakey said:
They'll rip up contracts for PFI hospitals and schools too.
...
As those contracts are a fraud on the public, maybe not a crazy idea. ...
Breadvan72 said:
The ignorance of postwar history displayed here and elsewhere in NPE is sad.
BL was nationalised because it had failed as a private sector business. There was no lefty ideology involved. It was a bail out. Remember those? The post war nationalisations concerned assets that it was thought should be under public control - water, rail, coal, and so on. Coal is over, but there remain good arguments for having some things in public hands, on the basis that they are too important to be left to the vagaries of markets. Water, roads, rail and some other things could be included.
Back to BL: it did indeed struggle because of lack of investment (this having been a thing that set in during the private sector days), and it struggled because of bad management and over aggressive unions that filled voids left by bad management. My father was a Production Engineer based at Rover just before the Honda hook-up. Honda engineers came to visit and asked when the factory had last retooled. The answer was 1946. The Honda guys said that they retooled their factories every eight years. Rover had not been in public ownership for all of the period 1946 to 1980, so place blame where blame is due.
BL's products were mixed (and too numerous), but included some that could have been world leaders if properly developed - some of the design and engineering was very fine (some, not all). Nationalised BL invented the SUV (Range Rover). Nationalised BL invented the supermini (Metro). (The other game changers, Land Rover and Mini, were private sector inventions). As it was, BL underwent a turnaround in the late 70s and early 80s, (not helped by attempts to micro manage from Whitehall; and even from Downing Street). Michael Edwardes' book "Back from the Brink" is worth a read.
The Metro wasn't the first supermini by means. Many would suggest the Fiat 127 of 1971 and almost everybody else made their version before the Metro appeared in 1980. It's a tribute to the Mini that it remained so popular in the face of such competition.BL was nationalised because it had failed as a private sector business. There was no lefty ideology involved. It was a bail out. Remember those? The post war nationalisations concerned assets that it was thought should be under public control - water, rail, coal, and so on. Coal is over, but there remain good arguments for having some things in public hands, on the basis that they are too important to be left to the vagaries of markets. Water, roads, rail and some other things could be included.
Back to BL: it did indeed struggle because of lack of investment (this having been a thing that set in during the private sector days), and it struggled because of bad management and over aggressive unions that filled voids left by bad management. My father was a Production Engineer based at Rover just before the Honda hook-up. Honda engineers came to visit and asked when the factory had last retooled. The answer was 1946. The Honda guys said that they retooled their factories every eight years. Rover had not been in public ownership for all of the period 1946 to 1980, so place blame where blame is due.
BL's products were mixed (and too numerous), but included some that could have been world leaders if properly developed - some of the design and engineering was very fine (some, not all). Nationalised BL invented the SUV (Range Rover). Nationalised BL invented the supermini (Metro). (The other game changers, Land Rover and Mini, were private sector inventions). As it was, BL underwent a turnaround in the late 70s and early 80s, (not helped by attempts to micro manage from Whitehall; and even from Downing Street). Michael Edwardes' book "Back from the Brink" is worth a read.
Otherwise, top post!
Breadvan72 said:
BL was nationalised because it had failed as a private sector business. There was no lefty ideology involved.
Not all of the companies within BL were unprofitable - but by sticking together in one nationalised entity they were eventually all doomed. Analogous to saying ALL banks were bailed out when in fact Brown coerced Lloyds (which was unscathed by the Credit Crunch) to merge with the failed HBOS.fido said:
Breadvan72 said:
BL was nationalised because it had failed as a private sector business. There was no lefty ideology involved.
Not all of the companies within BL were unprofitable - but by sticking together in one nationalised entity they were eventually all doomed. Analogous to saying ALL banks were bailed out when in fact Brown coerced Lloyds (which was unscathed by the Credit Crunch) to merge with the failed HBOS.Rover was successful post BL but was destroyed by its private sector owners. It was selling a lot of a good car - the 75 - when it went bust while its private sector owners went off with the loot.
Frankthered said:
The Metro wasn't the first supermini by means. Many would suggest the Fiat 127 of 1971 and almost everybody else made their version before the Metro appeared in 1980. It's a tribute to the Mini that it remained so popular in the face of such competition.
Otherwise, top post!
Cheers! Fair point re Metro, but arguably with Metro BL re-invented and really launched the modern supermini. Otherwise, top post!
Breadvan72 said:
BL was brought together as a private sector conglomerate. That failed. That was nationalised. Many of the mistakes made by the private sector management were perpetuated in the nationalised era. The companies were not all doomed. Land Rover and Jaguar are still going.
Rover was successful post BL but was destroyed by its private sector owners. It was selling a lot of a good car - the 75 - when it went bust while its private sector owners went off with the loot.
Was the 75 really a 'good car'? Wasn't it well behind the class leaders?Rover was successful post BL but was destroyed by its private sector owners. It was selling a lot of a good car - the 75 - when it went bust while its private sector owners went off with the loot.
Breadvan72 said:
BL was brought together as a private sector conglomerate.
Agree, but with government involvement. It would never make sense in a completely free-market economy to combine a rubbish company with a good one Or to have duplicate competing models within the same company. Etc. (a take-over or asset-stripping operation would be a different matter). Edited by fido on Monday 25th September 16:29
fido said:
Agree, but with government involvement. It would never make sense in a completely free-market economy to combine a rubbish company with a good one. Or to have duplicate competing models within the same company. Etc.
The VW group have masses of overlap between group companies.Much of the rubbishness was down to Lord Stokes, who was not a public sector guy, although he did well out of public sector honours and what not. He was a massive twit.
BTW, has anyone noticed that we have managed to sneak some discussion about actual cars into an NPE ranty I R HATEZ LABA thread? Don't tell anyone!
NPE regulars: if you want to know what a "car" is, there is apparently a popular website that goes on about them (well, Audis and MX 5s anyway). It is called P something or other, but I have never actually read it as I hear it is rubbish.
BTW, has anyone noticed that we have managed to sneak some discussion about actual cars into an NPE ranty I R HATEZ LABA thread? Don't tell anyone!
NPE regulars: if you want to know what a "car" is, there is apparently a popular website that goes on about them (well, Audis and MX 5s anyway). It is called P something or other, but I have never actually read it as I hear it is rubbish.
sidicks said:
The VW group have masses of overlap between group companies.
Exactly, but they are all effectively making VW's - pretty much down to name badging and tweaks for different markets - shared platforms and engines. Sure for the premium brands you have some differentiation as that is where the profit is.sidicks said:
Breadvan72 said:
BL was brought together as a private sector conglomerate. That failed. That was nationalised. Many of the mistakes made by the private sector management were perpetuated in the nationalised era. The companies were not all doomed. Land Rover and Jaguar are still going.
Rover was successful post BL but was destroyed by its private sector owners. It was selling a lot of a good car - the 75 - when it went bust while its private sector owners went off with the loot.
Was the 75 really a 'good car'? Wasn't it well behind the class leaders?Rover was successful post BL but was destroyed by its private sector owners. It was selling a lot of a good car - the 75 - when it went bust while its private sector owners went off with the loot.
sidicks said:
Was the 75 really a 'good car'? Wasn't it well behind the class leaders?
I find it a very boring car, but I find all modern cars very boring (modern starts sometime circa 1990). The 75 was well thought of at the time and sold well. You can buy them now for forty seven pence and they make good smoker arounders, I am told. V6 and club interior, if you fancy that.
fido said:
Not all of the companies within BL were unprofitable - but by sticking together in one nationalised entity they were eventually all doomed. Analogous to saying ALL banks were bailed out when in fact Brown coerced Lloyds (which was unscathed by the Credit Crunch) to merge with the failed HBOS.
There was someone called Stokes who owned Leyland Trucks, based strangely on the town of Leyland The government encouraged him to merge with BMC
Breadvan72 said:
sidicks said:
Was the 75 really a 'good car'? Wasn't it well behind the class leaders?
I find it a very boring car, but I find all modern cars very boring (modern starts sometime circa 1990). The 75 was well thought of at the time and sold well. You can buy them now for forty seven pence and they make good smoker arounders, I am told. V6 and club interior, if you fancy that.
By the way, can we stop referring to BL please? Everyone who knows anything about the firm always called it "the Austin".
sidicks said:
Breadvan72 said:
BL was brought together as a private sector conglomerate. That failed. That was nationalised. Many of the mistakes made by the private sector management were perpetuated in the nationalised era. The companies were not all doomed. Land Rover and Jaguar are still going.
Rover was successful post BL but was destroyed by its private sector owners. It was selling a lot of a good car - the 75 - when it went bust while its private sector owners went off with the loot.
Was the 75 really a 'good car'? Wasn't it well behind the class leaders?Rover was successful post BL but was destroyed by its private sector owners. It was selling a lot of a good car - the 75 - when it went bust while its private sector owners went off with the loot.
What Car? Car of the Year 1999.
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 1999
What Car? Diesel Car of the Year 1999
Auto Express World Car 1999
The Journal / AA Business Car of the Year 1999
Italian World's Most Beautiful High Class Saloon 1999
Bild am Sonntag Golden Steering Wheel Award 1999
The Society of Plastic Engineers Innovative use of plastic 1999 for the 75's V6 plastic intake system.
British International Motor Show Best riding and handling front wheel drive saloon in the world 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 2000
New Zealand's National Business Review 'Car of the Year' 2000
Executive Class Portuguese Car of the Year 2000
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 2000
The only executive car to be short-listed in the 2000 European Car of the Year Awards
Used Car Buyer 'Used Car of the Year 2000
Used Car Buyer Used Car of the Year 2001
Diesel Car Magazine Compact Executive Car 2001
JD Power customer satisfaction survey Only European car in the Top 5 2001
s2art said:
I doubt it. It won many awards when it first came out. Here are a few;
What Car? Car of the Year 1999.
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 1999
What Car? Diesel Car of the Year 1999
Auto Express World Car 1999
The Journal / AA Business Car of the Year 1999
Italian World's Most Beautiful High Class Saloon 1999
Bild am Sonntag Golden Steering Wheel Award 1999
The Society of Plastic Engineers Innovative use of plastic 1999 for the 75's V6 plastic intake system.
British International Motor Show Best riding and handling front wheel drive saloon in the world 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 2000
New Zealand's National Business Review 'Car of the Year' 2000
Executive Class Portuguese Car of the Year 2000
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 2000
The only executive car to be short-listed in the 2000 European Car of the Year Awards
Used Car Buyer 'Used Car of the Year 2000
Used Car Buyer Used Car of the Year 2001
Diesel Car Magazine Compact Executive Car 2001
JD Power customer satisfaction survey Only European car in the Top 5 2001
I think the credibility of some of those awards is questionable!What Car? Car of the Year 1999.
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 1999
What Car? Diesel Car of the Year 1999
Auto Express World Car 1999
The Journal / AA Business Car of the Year 1999
Italian World's Most Beautiful High Class Saloon 1999
Bild am Sonntag Golden Steering Wheel Award 1999
The Society of Plastic Engineers Innovative use of plastic 1999 for the 75's V6 plastic intake system.
British International Motor Show Best riding and handling front wheel drive saloon in the world 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 2000
New Zealand's National Business Review 'Car of the Year' 2000
Executive Class Portuguese Car of the Year 2000
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 2000
The only executive car to be short-listed in the 2000 European Car of the Year Awards
Used Car Buyer 'Used Car of the Year 2000
Used Car Buyer Used Car of the Year 2001
Diesel Car Magazine Compact Executive Car 2001
JD Power customer satisfaction survey Only European car in the Top 5 2001
sidicks said:
s2art said:
I doubt it. It won many awards when it first came out. Here are a few;
What Car? Car of the Year 1999.
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 1999
What Car? Diesel Car of the Year 1999
Auto Express World Car 1999
The Journal / AA Business Car of the Year 1999
Italian World's Most Beautiful High Class Saloon 1999
Bild am Sonntag Golden Steering Wheel Award 1999
The Society of Plastic Engineers Innovative use of plastic 1999 for the 75's V6 plastic intake system.
British International Motor Show Best riding and handling front wheel drive saloon in the world 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 2000
New Zealand's National Business Review 'Car of the Year' 2000
Executive Class Portuguese Car of the Year 2000
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 2000
The only executive car to be short-listed in the 2000 European Car of the Year Awards
Used Car Buyer 'Used Car of the Year 2000
Used Car Buyer Used Car of the Year 2001
Diesel Car Magazine Compact Executive Car 2001
JD Power customer satisfaction survey Only European car in the Top 5 2001
I think the credibility of some of those awards is questionable!What Car? Car of the Year 1999.
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 1999
What Car? Diesel Car of the Year 1999
Auto Express World Car 1999
The Journal / AA Business Car of the Year 1999
Italian World's Most Beautiful High Class Saloon 1999
Bild am Sonntag Golden Steering Wheel Award 1999
The Society of Plastic Engineers Innovative use of plastic 1999 for the 75's V6 plastic intake system.
British International Motor Show Best riding and handling front wheel drive saloon in the world 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 1999
Japanese 'Import Car of the Year' 2000
New Zealand's National Business Review 'Car of the Year' 2000
Executive Class Portuguese Car of the Year 2000
What Car? Compact Executive Car of the Year 2000
The only executive car to be short-listed in the 2000 European Car of the Year Awards
Used Car Buyer 'Used Car of the Year 2000
Used Car Buyer Used Car of the Year 2001
Diesel Car Magazine Compact Executive Car 2001
JD Power customer satisfaction survey Only European car in the Top 5 2001
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff