Chancellor asking for advice to aid young people
Discussion
austinsmirk said:
or back on track: try saving up for things and working for them, instead of living your life on credit instead of a "have now" culture.
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
oyster said:
austinsmirk said:
or back on track: try saving up for things and working for them, instead of living your life on credit instead of a "have now" culture.
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
Murph7355 said:
Eric Mc said:
Older pensioners still get the "Married Allowance". That should either be abolished or re-introduced as a universal allowance (as it was once upon a time).
Perhaps the complete abolition of tax breaks for property investors - including home owners? That would be radical and would create huge upset, so not likely.
What tax breaks do home owners get?Perhaps the complete abolition of tax breaks for property investors - including home owners? That would be radical and would create huge upset, so not likely.
(Agree on the married allowance. I'd get rid...fits more with trying to balance the books).
Edited to add, I tend to agree on property investors. Though haven't there already been measures to nobble that to an extent?
oyster said:
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!
And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
It is taxed once any gain is realised (one way or another).And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
Until that point it's pretty much meaningless to count it. If all those properties old duffers are sitting in suddenly went on the market, what do you think would happen to that notional value?
PurpleMoonlight said:
Murph7355 said:
What tax breaks do home owners get?
Don't you consider CGT free growth for your PPR a tax break?Of course, it would be a very brave Chancellor who would abolish it. But, you never know.
oyster said:
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!
And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
Actually he's right. The young today do not want to make the sacrifices previous generations did to get on the housing ladder; they expect everything to be handed to them on a plate.And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
On topic - best thing Hammond could do is resign but failing that simplify the tax system including abolishing NI and introducing a flat rate of tax relief for pension contributions (ideally based on age so the earlier you save the higher the rate of tax relief you receive)
oyster said:
austinsmirk said:
or back on track: try saving up for things and working for them, instead of living your life on credit instead of a "have now" culture.
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
then cut VAT, EERs NI, SLDT, IHT
Encourages more efficient use of existing housing stock, provides incentives to build (or rather disincentives to hold land), reduces property prices, captures planning gain etc..
Eric Mc said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Murph7355 said:
What tax breaks do home owners get?
Don't you consider CGT free growth for your PPR a tax break?Of course, it would be a very brave Chancellor who would abolish it. But, you never know.
Additional properties, very much fair game.
crankedup said:
Every Government intervention which weakens the financial advantages of married life has a price to pay within the Social fabric of society.
I'm not convinced fiscal incentives keep marriages together (though many of my friends reckon that in my case that is almost certainly a lie as there's no other reason my OH would be with me 
).I'm not even sure that marriage is essential for the social fabric of our society. I think strong relationships are, especially where children are involved. But that doesn't have to mean "marriage".
oyster said:
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!
Oooh. Now then! That's a broad statement that doesn't apply to all by a long way. If my Mum (85 today) were on PH, she'd be on you like a ton of bricks so I'll speak on her behalf.Mum and Dad were from working class backgrounds in the East End. They purchased their first flat in the early 60s, much to the distain of my father's family: "Property ownership is not for the likes of us, son...don't get ideas above your station"...etc. Second home in Leytonstone in the mid 60s. I came along and they moved out to Essex/London borders to a modest three bed end of terrace.
Both of them despised the idea of debt and both worked their fingers to the bone to pay the mortgage off as soon as they could which they managed to do by the early 80s. Dad was a model maker at Ford. Mum was a secretary.
My Mum still lives in the house. To say that they didn't work for it is way way off the truth. And they are not alone; most of their generation took the same approach. They have benefited from rising house prices since but that is not their fault. They have never received state hand-outs (even when they were entitled to it), no family money to underpin them, and everything they got, they most certainly earned.
It took me a long while to recognise this but their approach to financial management was spot on and probably more relevant today than ever before: work hard, save hard, live within your means and spend what you've got, not what you might get.
crankedup said:
oyster said:
austinsmirk said:
or back on track: try saving up for things and working for them, instead of living your life on credit instead of a "have now" culture.
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
And in any case, you've completely missed my point - this is not about demonising those who have benefitted from this windfall - it's about demonising the politicians who have repeatedly failed to tax windfalls, yet seem intent on taxing work and stifling innovation.
85Carrera said:
oyster said:
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!
And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
Actually he's right. The young today do not want to make the sacrifices previous generations did to get on the housing ladder; they expect everything to be handed to them on a plate.And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
On topic - best thing Hammond could do is resign but failing that simplify the tax system including abolishing NI and introducing a flat rate of tax relief for pension contributions (ideally based on age so the earlier you save the higher the rate of tax relief you receive)
I can tell you - I have worked just as hard as everyone else, except the difference is I got lucky about when I was born. And I haven't paid tax on that luck.
Murph7355 said:
PPR no, personally. If upsizing people need somewhere to live and the costs of moving are already taxed considerably. If downsizing, people should be using the "windfall" to subsidise the rest of their living costs...which I suspect most do.
Additional properties, very much fair game.
It won't happen, don't worry. But a lot of our fixation with owning our homes stems from this tax break - even if we don't really realise it.Additional properties, very much fair game.
oyster said:
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!
And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
Fair point, but the wealth is inaccessible so doesn't really help anyone unless they sell. And if you start taxing when people sell you'll just stop them from selling. Hardly going to help anyone else getting on the housing ladder.And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
It's not a simple problem to fix. Think it's good that tax breaks for landlords have largely been removed however
oyster said:
crankedup said:
oyster said:
austinsmirk said:
or back on track: try saving up for things and working for them, instead of living your life on credit instead of a "have now" culture.
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
And in any case, you've completely missed my point - this is not about demonising those who have benefitted from this windfall - it's about demonising the politicians who have repeatedly failed to tax windfalls, yet seem intent on taxing work and stifling innovation.
CaptainSensib1e said:
Think it's good that tax breaks for landlords have largely been removed however
What tax breaks are those? Having legitimate expenses allowed against taxable income, the same as every other business in the country?That's not levelling the playing field, that's tilting it.
As for what the chancellor could do, different people will have different opinions but I think most would agree with simplifying the tax system down to a level where people can understand it. As it stands, even HMRC have difficulty deciphering their rules.
crankedup said:
If you can't see the relevance of the political events around housing since 1979 to date then it is you that is missing the point. All political colour of Government have espoused home ownership as the Holy Grail to be priority, M.T. being the champion from the outset. Apologies if I missed the point that you raised, but to suggest that the past Governments should have taken a tax take from financial gains in the private housing sector would have seen any colour Government being flamed by the electorate, a simply unworkable proposition much the same as the Poll Tax policy.
As the % of renters increases, maybe not? Eric Mc said:
It won't happen, don't worry. But a lot of our fixation with owning our homes stems from this tax break - even if we don't really realise it.
I don't think it does at all. But then I think my background is more like StevieBee's than maybe most owners if what you are noting is correct.My fixation with owning my own home is to have a secure roof over my (our) head for my family. When I was single I didn't give a monkey's. Rented when I was, as that suited work (and lifestyle) far more. But that has now changed.
And it's not to do with wanting an inheritance for my kids. I don't follow house prices avidly as it's my home. It'll be nice if the house gives back what I put into it, but any material capital gain is the not primary motivator by a long stretch.
By dint of getting married we also own a flat in London. I'm expecting that to be subject to taxation (subject to avoidance measures available to everyone) and that's fair enough.
I don't really see how CGT on a PPR helps young people. I'm not convinced it would help lower house prices for starters, which I suspect would help them (HTB is a total red herring on that front, and I've started to think it's a total waste of time that helps anyone but the young).
CaptainSensib1e said:
oyster said:
It's hilarious that you're suggesting the young should work for things, when the older generations sit on £trillions of property equity that they haven't worked for either!!
And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
Fair point, but the wealth is inaccessible so doesn't really help anyone unless they sell. And if you start taxing when people sell you'll just stop them from selling. Hardly going to help anyone else getting on the housing ladder.And that is broadly untaxed.
This is the real elephant in the room.
The UK is in huge debt (government and personal) and we're still running up a sizeable annual deficit. Yet we have trillions of unearned, untaxed money tied up in residential property.
It's not a simple problem to fix. Think it's good that tax breaks for landlords have largely been removed however
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