Scots to bring in minimum price booze
Discussion
TheJimi said:
You only need to look at the 365 days without booze thread on here to see that it isn't an issue confined to Scotland.
It's British culture.
You just need to go out on any town centre at the weekend to see severe alcohol issues.
Visit any cheap European destination and it's often the English hated for their drunken antics. Lots of people seem to think 2 weeks all inclusive to stay in a drunken stupor is the best holiday ever. All the cheap resorts are full of Brits.
I don't think the consumption or alcohol related issues are any worse for the majority of Scotland.
I'm trying not to appear biased, being Scottish and all! :-)
However, I agree that it's a British culture thing, rather than an exclusive issue to Scotland.
Spending any amount of time in countries like France or Italy shows the inherent differences in their relationship with alcohol versus ours.
It's a complex, deep rooted cultural issue. No amount of minimum pricing b
ks is going to even scratch the surface.
However, I agree that it's a British culture thing, rather than an exclusive issue to Scotland.
Spending any amount of time in countries like France or Italy shows the inherent differences in their relationship with alcohol versus ours.
It's a complex, deep rooted cultural issue. No amount of minimum pricing b
ks is going to even scratch the surface.Lord Marylebone said:
I suppose the big question is:
Why do the Scottish have such a problem with alcohol?
Northern European; the Scandinavians deal with the problem by using price and strangling the supply. In my experience, the Finns can be demon drinkers when they are let loose, as can the Icelandics.Why do the Scottish have such a problem with alcohol?
Lord Marylebone said:
I suppose the big question is:
Why do the Scottish have such a problem with alcohol?
They don't. The Office for national Statistics survey of Alcohol use confirmed:- Why do the Scottish have such a problem with alcohol?
"•In 2016, similar patterns of drinking were observed in England, Scotland and Wales; of the English regions, binge drinking was more common in the north"
Given the health problems associated with heavy drinking, it's sensible to try and impose a control on the worse drinkers so you can't knock Scotland for trying whether you think minimum pricing is the answer or not.
The Surveyor said:
Given the health problems associated with heavy drinking, it's sensible to try and impose a control on the worse drinkers so you can't knock Scotland for trying whether you think minimum pricing is the answer or not.
Typical politician's logic:- there is a problem
- something must be done
- here's something
Minimum alcohol pricing will not dissuade the dependent and problem drinkers. Alcoholics will simply go without something else and, when desperate, resort to theft in the same way other addicts do. Yobs will resort to illicit purchases and the black market will increase.
Like the 'progressive' replacement for stamp duty in Scotland that was supposed to increase revenue but resulted in a reduction due to market price control, or the 'Offensive Behaviour at Football' Act that made it more difficult rather than less to successfully bring prosecutions for sectarian behaviour - every time the SNP virtue signal by introducing legislation they make no difference or make things worse.
Edited by r11co on Friday 17th November 10:14
Tbh, I'm not knocking them for trying, per-se. I'm knocking them for wasting time on a policy that's not going to make any sort of tangible improvement, and quite possibly make the situation worse for certain people.
It's one of these policies that has come from ministers saying "we need to be seen to be doing something about this."
Edit: r1cco said it better than I did.
It's one of these policies that has come from ministers saying "we need to be seen to be doing something about this."
Edit: r1cco said it better than I did.
Edited by TheJimi on Friday 17th November 10:16
I don’t think the minimum pricing will do anything to reduce the consumption of the older hardened drinkers. As mentioned by others, something else will suffer due to price increase on their drink addiction. I’ve got an old school friend who is an alcoholic. I’ve known him to sit in his flat with no power because he needed the money for drink. Heat and light versus alcohol, alcohol comes first.
What I hope this legislation does do is discourage the younger teenagers from starting. The 13-14 year olds planning on buying drink will be looking at the frosty jack type product that this legislation is directly aimed at.
If the older drinkers need to suffer to help prevent the next generation from becoming alcoholics then I think it’s a price we’ll have to pay.
The majority of my jobs have been in manufacturing factories. Drink is a major part of most of these peoples lives.
“What you got planned this weekend?”
“Dunno, but I’m getting pished”
That’s a conversation I hear almost every week.
When I was younger you were still allowed to drink in public places. Every Saturday and Sunday morning the public park was littered with bottles and cans. The council bylaws preventing this were brought in, in the mid 90’s.
People probably said the similar things about that change.
We have a very real problem in Scotland with alcohol. Any attempt to change that for the better has to be welcomed.
Just my thoughts, I often use PH for having a laugh and a joke but I see the negative side of our relationship with alcohol all the time. DB, 43, Scottish
What I hope this legislation does do is discourage the younger teenagers from starting. The 13-14 year olds planning on buying drink will be looking at the frosty jack type product that this legislation is directly aimed at.
If the older drinkers need to suffer to help prevent the next generation from becoming alcoholics then I think it’s a price we’ll have to pay.
The majority of my jobs have been in manufacturing factories. Drink is a major part of most of these peoples lives.
“What you got planned this weekend?”
“Dunno, but I’m getting pished”
That’s a conversation I hear almost every week.
When I was younger you were still allowed to drink in public places. Every Saturday and Sunday morning the public park was littered with bottles and cans. The council bylaws preventing this were brought in, in the mid 90’s.
People probably said the similar things about that change.
We have a very real problem in Scotland with alcohol. Any attempt to change that for the better has to be welcomed.
Just my thoughts, I often use PH for having a laugh and a joke but I see the negative side of our relationship with alcohol all the time. DB, 43, Scottish
Drive Blind said:
We have a very real problem in Scotland with alcohol. Any attempt to change that for the better has to be welcomed.
Noble sentiments, but as I said 'anything' done with good intentions is useless and potentially counterproductive if it fails to achieve its aims, and supporting unscientific knee-jerk virtue signalling is a trap some (like yourself) have been led into with this legislation. 'Anything' is worse than nothing if the anything achieves nothing but brings with itself a cost.There is plenty evidence to show that societal problems with alcohol are not causally linked to price. Iceland, Finland and Sweden have had taxation levels for alcohol at what are supposed to be prohibitively high levels for generations, yet they also have some of the highest levels of alcoholism and alcohol related social problems in the world, with no sign of them abating despite continual incremental price hikes.
Italy and Spain have some of the lowest prices for alcohol in the EU and also the lowest incidents of alcohol related crime.
There have been scientific studies that have demonstrated a link with the propensity for alcohol and substance abuse in a society with the further North or South that society lives. Parts of Canada have alcohol issues similar to Northern Europe and it was this similarity that sparked the research, but unfortunately there is no easy, virtue-signalling activity a politician can enact to alter geography, so they settle instead for misusing and mis-applying what levers they have.
The legislation has been given a 6 year time-lapse by which it has to be assessed and re-enacted. Expect around year 5 the press-releases from ScotGov statisticians and quangos quoting very narrow measures of the 'success' of this move.
Edited by r11co on Friday 17th November 12:00
r11co said:
There is plenty evidence to show that societal problems with alcohol are not causally linked to price. Iceland, Finland and Sweden have had taxation levels for alcohol at what are supposed to be prohibitively high levels for generations, yet they also have some of the highest levels of alcoholism and alcohol related social problems in the world, with no sign of them abating despite continual incremental price hikes.
+1Famous Russian joke.
"Dad, now that Vodka is more expensive will you drink less?"
"No son, you will eat less."
r11co said:
There is plenty evidence to show that societal problems with alcohol are not causally linked to price. Iceland, Finland and Sweden have had taxation levels for alcohol at what are supposed to be prohibitively high levels for generations, yet they also have some of the highest levels of alcoholism and alcohol related social problems in the world, with no sign of them abating despite continual incremental price hikes.
Italy and Spain have some of the lowest prices for alcohol in the EU and also the lowest incidents of alcohol related crime.
There have been scientific studies that have demonstrated a link with the propensity for alcohol and substance abuse in a society with the further North or South that society lives. Parts of Canada have alcohol issues similar to Northern Europe and it was this similarity that sparked the research, but unfortunately there is no easy, virtue-signalling activity a politician can enact to alter geography, so they settle instead for misusing and mis-applying what levers they have.
Haven't clicked the link yet, though I will later.Italy and Spain have some of the lowest prices for alcohol in the EU and also the lowest incidents of alcohol related crime.
There have been scientific studies that have demonstrated a link with the propensity for alcohol and substance abuse in a society with the further North or South that society lives. Parts of Canada have alcohol issues similar to Northern Europe and it was this similarity that sparked the research, but unfortunately there is no easy, virtue-signalling activity a politician can enact to alter geography, so they settle instead for misusing and mis-applying what levers they have.
Does it mention any correlation to the weather? Sounds daft, but...
TheJimi said:
Does it mention any correlation to the weather? Sounds daft, but...
Not daft at all. Climate is indeed one of the factors analysed.There is a much bigger issue here of environmental factors linked to depression, some of which can be dealt with by infrastructure development, but the Scottish Government's record with anything beyond tokenism and symbolism is abysmal. Baby-boxes, anyone?!...
Edited by r11co on Friday 17th November 12:21
moanthebairns said:
TheJimi said:
moanthebairns said:
Well I took Over 200 bottles of frosty jack to the tip Monday morning... That's a lot of money this time next year.
The Surveyor said:
Lord Marylebone said:
I suppose the big question is:
Why do the Scottish have such a problem with alcohol?
They don't. The Office for national Statistics survey of Alcohol use confirmed:- Why do the Scottish have such a problem with alcohol?
"•In 2016, similar patterns of drinking were observed in England, Scotland and Wales; of the English regions, binge drinking was more common in the north"
Given the health problems associated with heavy drinking, it's sensible to try and impose a control on the worse drinkers so you can't knock Scotland for trying whether you think minimum pricing is the answer or not.
Some facts:
24 people in Scotland die of alcohol related issues per week - 54% more than England and Wales.
On average, enough alcohol is sold to enable every single Scot over the age of 18 to consume 44% more alcohol than the recommended limit every single week.
Alcohol sales per person in Scotland are 20% higher than England and Wales. Equivalent to 477 pints of beer per year, for every single person 18 years or older.
Alcohol abuse costs the Scottish economy £3.56 Billion per year and is responsible for 96 hospital admissions every day.
It won't solve problem drinking. The evidence is that heavy drinkers are not demand sensitive to price.
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/minimum-alcohol-pri...
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/minimum-alcohol-pri...
crankedup said:
Supreme court find in favour of the Scottish Government and it is now to bring into law the minimum price unit of alcohol.
Announcement on price is awaited however it is generally understood that most but the very cheapest of alcohols will be unaffected at introduction. Thin end of wedge maybe?
This opens the door for our Government to follow the Scots and then perhaps we will see rises in alcohol prices every budget, just like the old days.
Only the lowest income individuals will be affected and this will do nothing to arrest the increase in alcohol abuse (or enjoyment)
What do you mean by "our government"?Announcement on price is awaited however it is generally understood that most but the very cheapest of alcohols will be unaffected at introduction. Thin end of wedge maybe?
This opens the door for our Government to follow the Scots and then perhaps we will see rises in alcohol prices every budget, just like the old days.
Only the lowest income individuals will be affected and this will do nothing to arrest the increase in alcohol abuse (or enjoyment)
Lord Marylebone said:
On average, enough alcohol is sold to enable every single Scot over the age of 18 to consume 44% more alcohol than the recommended limit every single week..
Is that the old recommended limit that was pulled out of thin air, or the new recommended limit based on furious lobbying by an ancient temperance movement?Not saying there isn't a problem (for some), but I wouldn't lean too heavily on such stats.
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