How deep is the rabbit hole?
Discussion
jmorgan said:
Tipping points and all that. Not the size of the thing but how it is best applied. Both parties in the us threw obscene amounts of money at it for 55% turnout?
Bit of clever marketing after the person you want to win in key area’s remembering this is online not in person on a jet, not as much money needed?
And you want it to be under the radar.
That's sort of why I don't buy it (though I certainly accept Russia has hired a few trolls).Bit of clever marketing after the person you want to win in key area’s remembering this is online not in person on a jet, not as much money needed?
And you want it to be under the radar.
A fairly important part of democracy is it shouldn't be subvertable by any amount of money, or failing that, at least no reasonably practical amount. On a small scale, that's why MPs pay is relatively high - and arguably should be higher.
If, as you say, less than a new sports car can swing it? That's very much our problem. More likely, it didn't and is being used as an excuse.
I struggle with the whole "ruskies everywhere" angle that seems to be increasing.
Maybe they just are that subtle at it, for example I watch bits of RT and it doesn't shout of being a Putin mouthpiece yet I'm listening to a radio show now where they're debating that it's basically Kremlin Today - I should stress the word "bits" so perhaps watch it more and it becomes more obvious.
With the Facebooks and Googles of this world (and I use Google a lot because of the security) there are clear privacy issues and for me the bottom line is they spend millions if not billions on advertising stuff - they wouldn't do that if it didn't work.
Maybe they just are that subtle at it, for example I watch bits of RT and it doesn't shout of being a Putin mouthpiece yet I'm listening to a radio show now where they're debating that it's basically Kremlin Today - I should stress the word "bits" so perhaps watch it more and it becomes more obvious.
With the Facebooks and Googles of this world (and I use Google a lot because of the security) there are clear privacy issues and for me the bottom line is they spend millions if not billions on advertising stuff - they wouldn't do that if it didn't work.
It is no secret that even many Democrats disliked Clinton. It really isn't difficult to believe that she simply lost the election.If we are open to the idea that the Russians sway opinion through social media. And that the general population is subject to a high degree of social engineering from multiple entities simultaneously, then we must also be open to the idea that those ideas are planted by another entity to obfuscate that entity.
I.e. how do we discern what is truth?
How do we know that the stories and 'evidence' pointing one way, aren't a plant by someone else?
Wheels within wheels.
I.e. how do we discern what is truth?
How do we know that the stories and 'evidence' pointing one way, aren't a plant by someone else?
Wheels within wheels.
Breadvan72 said:
Russia is not a major threat as it is relatively skint, but it suits Putin, who is a short to medium term thinker, to foment instability in democracies. A weak and divided US and a weak and divided EU are good news for him.
Is exactly the correct answer.He may not be a direct threat, but he very much likes to distract his own population by causing trouble elsewhere.
Lord Marylebone said:
Breadvan72 said:
Russia is not a major threat as it is relatively skint, but it suits Putin, who is a short to medium term thinker, to foment instability in democracies. A weak and divided US and a weak and divided EU are good news for him.
Is exactly the correct answer.He may not be a direct threat, but he very much likes to distract his own population by causing trouble elsewhere.
The west initially lost that convenient bogeyman in 1991/2, and has long searched for another.
China won't do (as another said above) as we do too much business with them (and for my money, we are too damned comfortable with it, but that's s separate argument altogether).
And so the democrats especially have latched onto this idea in order to restore the bogeyman to his proper place in the public mind and, very conveniently, to discredit Trump and his associates at the same time. (NB - not a Trump lover, just a Hillary hater, but again a separate argument)
To suggest or intimate that it is a one-sided show would be either naive or disingenuous in the extreme.
paranoid airbag said:
jmorgan said:
Tipping points and all that. Not the size of the thing but how it is best applied. Both parties in the us threw obscene amounts of money at it for 55% turnout?
Bit of clever marketing after the person you want to win in key area’s remembering this is online not in person on a jet, not as much money needed?
And you want it to be under the radar.
That's sort of why I don't buy it (though I certainly accept Russia has hired a few trolls).Bit of clever marketing after the person you want to win in key area’s remembering this is online not in person on a jet, not as much money needed?
And you want it to be under the radar.
A fairly important part of democracy is it shouldn't be subvertable by any amount of money, or failing that, at least no reasonably practical amount. On a small scale, that's why MPs pay is relatively high - and arguably should be higher.
If, as you say, less than a new sports car can swing it? That's very much our problem. More likely, it didn't and is being used as an excuse.
In theory, all a Putin bot has to do is look for the ones where the system will benefit and tip the balance there, the popular vote was not where it was at. If it is on the internet, it must be true. "Re tweet", "Like" and all that. Putin wins by messing around and look at the US now.
If you look to Momentum, they have embraced the digital age with gusto. Personally I would be looking to their finances and where they get advice from........
4x4Tyke said:
I work in IT, specifically with teams that build very large scale websites, a bank, gaming(betting), a supermarket. There are a few privacy holdouts but they are few and far between. Everybody is leaking information online every day and it is being used to manipulate you. This happens commercially with advertising, it is inevitable that this will be used politically. It is important that more people understand how this happens.
You openly tell them your interests every time you type something into a search engine.
All the big internet brands Google, Facebook, Twitter provide tool kits that are used to develop most websites, these track everybody across the sites you visit. There are intermediates like Amazon and Cloudflare that provide much of the infrastructure, that can do the same. We are each a number (technically called unique hash) with a bunch of data attached. This page for example, uses Google Analytics, most commercial sites do. You are not a customer, you are ultimately a sales lead.
They see every site address, every page, the time, where you came from (source IP address), subject of the page, each time we visit a web page with Analytics we leak a little more information about ourselves.
In a short time we are linked to family, friends and colleagues, sometimes by location, sometimes using the same internet connection. At some point you leaked your email and other personal details like name, DOB, address, details of companies you have accounts with.
That only scratches the surface, the reality is orders of magnitude more insidious, it is largely hidden from the public consciousness and hideously complex.
The net result is you are targeted with highly focused marketing information, this happens commercially now, it should be no surprise to see this used politically. We will need to accept that is how it will be and arm ourselves with the knowledge to see past it.
Leavers for example like HP sauce, it is their favourite brand. That link itself is meaningless, except to reveal the level of detail they have about people. They can target just about anything and we need to be wise to it.
So its defiantly not Russia we need to be worried about then, All them company's you have just mentioned who have massive power and control are American all with connections with the US government. Mostly left wing soloist type company's Google are now sacking employees because they have the audacity to question why women don't do programming. You openly tell them your interests every time you type something into a search engine.
All the big internet brands Google, Facebook, Twitter provide tool kits that are used to develop most websites, these track everybody across the sites you visit. There are intermediates like Amazon and Cloudflare that provide much of the infrastructure, that can do the same. We are each a number (technically called unique hash) with a bunch of data attached. This page for example, uses Google Analytics, most commercial sites do. You are not a customer, you are ultimately a sales lead.
They see every site address, every page, the time, where you came from (source IP address), subject of the page, each time we visit a web page with Analytics we leak a little more information about ourselves.
In a short time we are linked to family, friends and colleagues, sometimes by location, sometimes using the same internet connection. At some point you leaked your email and other personal details like name, DOB, address, details of companies you have accounts with.
That only scratches the surface, the reality is orders of magnitude more insidious, it is largely hidden from the public consciousness and hideously complex.
The net result is you are targeted with highly focused marketing information, this happens commercially now, it should be no surprise to see this used politically. We will need to accept that is how it will be and arm ourselves with the knowledge to see past it.
Leavers for example like HP sauce, it is their favourite brand. That link itself is meaningless, except to reveal the level of detail they have about people. They can target just about anything and we need to be wise to it.
The people who are screaming the loudest about all this social control only seem to be bothered about Russia.
hairyben said:
The real problem is the amount of intellectual dishonesty in play today. Without that, all the social media manipulation possible would be worthless, but you can see it right here in this thread how people think fake news is something only the "other side" are bad with and if you point out fake news they're buying into it's just brushed off as kind of different and kind of okay, because we're the good guys right?
This is the biggest issue for me these techniques have been being used for years by governments, political parties, and corporations but now its all of a sudden a problem when their control of it starts to slip and others start to use it. Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Sunday 19th November 16:20
Not-The-Messiah said:
hairyben said:
The real problem is the amount of intellectual dishonesty in play today. Without that, all the social media manipulation possible would be worthless, but you can see it right here in this thread how people think fake news is something only the "other side" are bad with and if you point out fake news they're buying into it's just brushed off as kind of different and kind of okay, because we're the good guys right?
This is the biggest issue for me these techniques have been being used for years by governments, political parties, and corporations for years but now its all of a sudden a problem when their control of it starts to slip and others start to use it. steveT350C said:
Not-The-Messiah said:
hairyben said:
The real problem is the amount of intellectual dishonesty in play today. Without that, all the social media manipulation possible would be worthless, but you can see it right here in this thread how people think fake news is something only the "other side" are bad with and if you point out fake news they're buying into it's just brushed off as kind of different and kind of okay, because we're the good guys right?
This is the biggest issue for me these techniques have been being used for years by governments, political parties, and corporations for years but now its all of a sudden a problem when their control of it starts to slip and others start to use it. An example how deep the rabbit hole is...
Facebook adverts like this
have been popping up recently. They're promoted with the tag line "Welcome to our grassroots efforts to make sure that we hold our MPs accountable." by Voter Consultancy Limited.
This so-called grassroots group has one director, Thomas Borwick, formerly CTO of Vote Leave and connected to Cambridge Analytica.
Borwick has also just started a new company with Douglas Carswell - https://www.disruptiveanalytica.com/
Facebook adverts like this
have been popping up recently. They're promoted with the tag line "Welcome to our grassroots efforts to make sure that we hold our MPs accountable." by Voter Consultancy Limited.
This so-called grassroots group has one director, Thomas Borwick, formerly CTO of Vote Leave and connected to Cambridge Analytica.
Borwick has also just started a new company with Douglas Carswell - https://www.disruptiveanalytica.com/
Lord Marylebone said:
Breadvan72 said:
Russia is not a major threat as it is relatively skint, but it suits Putin, who is a short to medium term thinker, to foment instability in democracies. A weak and divided US and a weak and divided EU are good news for him.
Is exactly the correct answer.He may not be a direct threat, but he very much likes to distract his own population by causing trouble elsewhere.
Russia is rearming, it’s command and control systems battle hardened by Syria. It’s facing a weakend Europe and nato. Only the other day the head of the UK armed forces stated the UK would not be able to resist a Russian attack. And we would have to resist until the US could place enough assets in theatre to turn the tied. That could takes weeks if not months.
Russia is a threat we ignore at our peril.
leef44 said:
I don't believe anything I read in this thread. I think it's just people trying to manipulate my opinion.
Actually, no. That’s what they want you to think. Their real objective is to make sure your existing views are reinforced and become even more entrenched. Or is it...?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff