How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 2)

How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 2)

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Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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Funny how you lot never called for regular referendums before this one.

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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Robertj21a said:
Just popped in for the occasional read. Seems to just be the usual Remainers spouting a load of waffle without realising that the only other posters on here are usually other disillusioned Remainers ! The Leavers moved on some time ago.

Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
Its embarrassing, I never realised how childish grown adults could be.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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Robertj21a said:
Just popped in for the occasional read. Seems to just be the usual Remainers spouting a load of waffle without realising that the only other posters on here are usually other disillusioned Remainers ! The Leavers moved on some time ago.

Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
It may come as a shock to you but there are leave voters posting in these threads. Have a look up thread wink

Edit: that also includes you.

mike9009

6,918 posts

242 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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REALIST123 said:

So you accept that he’s attacking democracy in trying to get another vote?
To be clear, I have not requested another vote. I was challenging this statement by a moaning leaver.... Democracy is not static....

Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.

‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.

It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
Your pretty strident views on the Leave option and those who voted for it put you about as far away from knowing why people voted for it and what they voted for as it's possible to get.

You can't see any reason not to have further votes because you are desperate for the opportunity for it to be reversed. If the vote was the same, you'd likely want another. And another.

And before you note you wouldn't, had the vote gone the other way in 2016, would you have even remotely considered a further vote before another GE (or even then)? Are there any grounds on which you'd have said "we won, but we'll have another vote just to check"?

Be honest....

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.

‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.

It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z7qZhlrbcB8

mike9009

6,918 posts

242 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.

‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.

It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
I don't think this is unreasonable. Following completion of negotiations, would Leave voters be happy with an agreement which allows FoM and any trade deals to be agreed by the EU, for example?

The only caveat is, I don't think anyone will agree to the negotiated terms (Leavers or Remainers) and so maybe we should leave our democratically elected government, to run the country as bestowed upon them.....

My only concerns for leavers is that we democratically voted to leave the EU, not to leave the EU and then have a compromised, negotiated deal with the EU.

I am now a passenger in this debacle and my only enjoyment is seeing the political classes struggle with a somewhat impossible task.....its a tight rope with a piece of cotton as the rope..... A very interesting point in history for the UK and probably the most engaging political task during my lifetime.....


Mike





bitchstewie

50,800 posts

209 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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mike9009 said:
We cannot possibly go back on the referendum vote.... that would be undemocratic....... smile
The thing is I genuinely think there are people who believe that no political party should run on an election manifesto of taking us back in (assuming we come out).

I don't recall anyone ever giving a number on how long the referendum should bind us for and then you're into top trumps over whether a referendum "beats" a General Election manifesto etc.

Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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bhstewie said:
mike9009 said:
We cannot possibly go back on the referendum vote.... that would be undemocratic....... smile
The thing is I genuinely think there are people who believe that no political party should run on an election manifesto of taking us back in (assuming we come out).

I don't recall anyone ever giving a number on how long the referendum should bind us for and then you're into top trumps over whether a referendum "beats" a General Election manifesto etc.
Realistically there should be no time limit on our exited status. But we need to exit first!

If a party stands on taking us back in (or having a ref to take us back in) and is credible enough to win a GE then fair enough. I'm not sure who you're talking to that is saying no party should be able to stand on this basis...

A referendum doesn't "trump" a GE. The GE comes first and there were only two parties guaranteeing a referendum on the topic in 2015 IIRC.

The caterwauling would be better employed encouraging a credible party to stand on this basis. I don't see that happening until a GE or two after 2020, but you never know.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.

‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.

It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
The deal will only be clear in autumn this year (the target is October, so probably November). That gives five months between the deal becoming clear and Brexit. If we're optimistic and say that a referendum campaign is six weeks and that all of the housekeeping (picking official campaigns etc.) has been done in advance, we're looking at a referendum at Christmas. Not ideal for lots of reasons, as I'm sure you'll agree.

That means it needs to be pushed out to January, probably into the second week of the month to make sure that schools are back and most people have got back to work.

In that scenario Mrs. May would have to go back to Brussels (probably in her last act as PM) to tell the EU that the deal is off and we'd like to have another go. With a Gallic shrug M. Barnier would say "Non", and then we really would be falling off the cliff.

Having another referendum will do literally nothing to soften Brexit; the only possible effect will be to take it from the "medium-hard" Brexit we are heading towards to a Brexit that would cut through diamond as if it were warm butter.

In more general terms the Brexit we were going to end up with was always going to be out of the Single Market and out of the Customs Union because of the two major groups within the leave campaign - the "End/Slow/Control Immigration" group (which precludes single market membership) and the "Stride the trade world like a colossus" group (which precludes customs union membership).

Remaining in the single market would be problematic for the EU as well as for the UK. Without a UK vote the Single Market is going to move rather quickly away from the British way of doing things, and that will cause significant friction. There will be a lot of resentment from both sides and there will be an increasing clamour from a resurgent UKIP (since they'd have something to do again) to leave.

The customs union would again be an issue, especially around agricultural tariffs. We'd be bound by a system that prevents us from reducing tariffs on our Scotch into India because the French want to protect their subsistence farmers, which again will be a cause of friction.

A "soft" Brexit wouldn't be stable as a result, and in the end would just work out to be a longer than planned transition period to a "hard" Brexit.

Europe needs to make some fundamental changes to make the EU work properly, and since they weren't interested in rolling it back to a simple trade bloc the only answer is an awful lot more Europe than there is now - fiscal transfers, common budgets, harmonised tax systems and all that goes with it.

The UK doesn't want more Europe (I think that we can all agree at least that the referendum result makes that clear at least) so the paths available are rather limited.

dromong

689 posts

219 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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Robertj21a said:
Just popped in for the occasional read. Seems to just be the usual Remainers spouting a load of waffle without realising that the only other posters on here are usually other disillusioned Remainers ! The Leavers moved on some time ago.

Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
Same here, I only give this thread a desultory glance now, still the same playground antics by the same "nothing better to do all day" coterie, those with twin capital letters as the start of their username being the most lame brained inculcates.

If you look back through the thread there are actually a few interesting posts, but the vast majority of them are by occasional visitors, I would take that as being due to the fact that they have much more interesting things to do with their time, hence a higher intellect than those that just sit here all day.hehe

mike9009

6,918 posts

242 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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For those proponents of a second referendum, what would the question be??

Do you accept the negotiated position of the UK to leave the EU?

Or do we have three positions?

1. Leave without the negotiated position
2. Leave with the negotiated position
3. Remain

It just will not work.........

Crackie

6,386 posts

241 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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gooner1 said:
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.

‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.

It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
There is no gain without pain, and I refute your "painless process " claim.
Who thought, or claimed negotiations would be easy?
There is little point responding to ORD's strange ramblings; he just invents stuff in his head and then posts before thinking them through. Today, apparently, "Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process". Yesterday the polls had leave 'dead in the water' a few weeks before the vote.......these are strangely deluded views; there is no evidence at all to support them.

Edited by Crackie on Sunday 21st January 12:38

andymadmak

14,485 posts

269 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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Crackie said:
gooner1 said:
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.

‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.

It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
There is no gain without pain, and I refute your "painless process " claim.
Who thought, or claimed negotiations would be easy?
There is little point responding to ORD's odd posts; he just invents stuff in his head and then posts before thinking. Today, apparently, many leavers thought Brexit would be painless. Yesterday the polls had leave 'dead in the water' a few weeks before the vote.......all a bit weird tbh.
And don't for one moment imagine that you can ask him for a data source to support his claims! He'll either ignore the request, or froth that he does not need to provide on because it's "obvious innit", or he will pretend that it's already been provided, or or he will start bleating that he is being attacked personally. (whilst all the while pretending that he doesn't attack Brexit posters himself!)
Thankfully, people like ORD are very very much the exception to the Remain voters I have met.

On a purely human note, whatever happened to Slasher? I might not agree with him on anything, but I do hope he's OK! Did he get banned for something?

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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Probably worked himself up into a fugue state.

Jazzy Jag

3,412 posts

90 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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digimeistter said:
Probably worked himself up into a fugue state.
He's just using one of his other user names.

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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andymadmak said:
Crackie said:
gooner1 said:
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.

‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.

It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
There is no gain without pain, and I refute your "painless process " claim.
Who thought, or claimed negotiations would be easy?
There is little point responding to ORD's odd posts; he just invents stuff in his head and then posts before thinking. Today, apparently, many leavers thought Brexit would be painless. Yesterday the polls had leave 'dead in the water' a few weeks before the vote.......all a bit weird tbh.


On a purely human note, whatever happened to Slasher? I might not agree with him on anything, but I do hope he's OK! Did he get banned for something?
It's strange how ///ajd has seemingly disappeared, as far as I know he wasn't banned?

I've had many run-ins/disagreements with him but like you I would hope he's OK.

Get ///ajd talking on cars, especially BMW's and he was a top bloke, and I did share a couple of car meets (If I recall correctly and BMW related) in his company, along with being on the same BMW forum as ///ajd albeit quite some time ago now.

The only obvious choice as a pseudonym for ///ajd doesn't really stack up, being a BMW and Porsche fan as ///ajd was, a hairdressers car wouldn't really cut the mustard wink

alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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Slasher shout

mx5nut

5,404 posts

81 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
Fear that one of the options may be "no Brexit" (unlikely, but maybe one would be essentially "Brexit in name only"). Even bigger fear that the will of the people would vote for it.

mx5nut

5,404 posts

81 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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Robertj21a said:
Just popped in for

...

there's no need for any further vote
It's nice to have a timely reminder of how anti democratic some Leave supporters can be every so often - thanks byebye

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