How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 2)
Discussion
Robertj21a said:
Just popped in for the occasional read. Seems to just be the usual Remainers spouting a load of waffle without realising that the only other posters on here are usually other disillusioned Remainers ! The Leavers moved on some time ago.
Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
Its embarrassing, I never realised how childish grown adults could be.Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
Robertj21a said:
Just popped in for the occasional read. Seems to just be the usual Remainers spouting a load of waffle without realising that the only other posters on here are usually other disillusioned Remainers ! The Leavers moved on some time ago.
Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
It may come as a shock to you but there are leave voters posting in these threads. Have a look up thread Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
Edit: that also includes you.
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
Your pretty strident views on the Leave option and those who voted for it put you about as far away from knowing why people voted for it and what they voted for as it's possible to get.‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
You can't see any reason not to have further votes because you are desperate for the opportunity for it to be reversed. If the vote was the same, you'd likely want another. And another.
And before you note you wouldn't, had the vote gone the other way in 2016, would you have even remotely considered a further vote before another GE (or even then)? Are there any grounds on which you'd have said "we won, but we'll have another vote just to check"?
Be honest....
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z7qZhlrbcB8‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
I don't think this is unreasonable. Following completion of negotiations, would Leave voters be happy with an agreement which allows FoM and any trade deals to be agreed by the EU, for example?‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
The only caveat is, I don't think anyone will agree to the negotiated terms (Leavers or Remainers) and so maybe we should leave our democratically elected government, to run the country as bestowed upon them.....
My only concerns for leavers is that we democratically voted to leave the EU, not to leave the EU and then have a compromised, negotiated deal with the EU.
I am now a passenger in this debacle and my only enjoyment is seeing the political classes struggle with a somewhat impossible task.....its a tight rope with a piece of cotton as the rope..... A very interesting point in history for the UK and probably the most engaging political task during my lifetime.....
Mike
mike9009 said:
We cannot possibly go back on the referendum vote.... that would be undemocratic.......
The thing is I genuinely think there are people who believe that no political party should run on an election manifesto of taking us back in (assuming we come out).I don't recall anyone ever giving a number on how long the referendum should bind us for and then you're into top trumps over whether a referendum "beats" a General Election manifesto etc.
bhstewie said:
mike9009 said:
We cannot possibly go back on the referendum vote.... that would be undemocratic.......
The thing is I genuinely think there are people who believe that no political party should run on an election manifesto of taking us back in (assuming we come out).I don't recall anyone ever giving a number on how long the referendum should bind us for and then you're into top trumps over whether a referendum "beats" a General Election manifesto etc.
If a party stands on taking us back in (or having a ref to take us back in) and is credible enough to win a GE then fair enough. I'm not sure who you're talking to that is saying no party should be able to stand on this basis...
A referendum doesn't "trump" a GE. The GE comes first and there were only two parties guaranteeing a referendum on the topic in 2015 IIRC.
The caterwauling would be better employed encouraging a credible party to stand on this basis. I don't see that happening until a GE or two after 2020, but you never know.
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
The deal will only be clear in autumn this year (the target is October, so probably November). That gives five months between the deal becoming clear and Brexit. If we're optimistic and say that a referendum campaign is six weeks and that all of the housekeeping (picking official campaigns etc.) has been done in advance, we're looking at a referendum at Christmas. Not ideal for lots of reasons, as I'm sure you'll agree.‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
That means it needs to be pushed out to January, probably into the second week of the month to make sure that schools are back and most people have got back to work.
In that scenario Mrs. May would have to go back to Brussels (probably in her last act as PM) to tell the EU that the deal is off and we'd like to have another go. With a Gallic shrug M. Barnier would say "Non", and then we really would be falling off the cliff.
Having another referendum will do literally nothing to soften Brexit; the only possible effect will be to take it from the "medium-hard" Brexit we are heading towards to a Brexit that would cut through diamond as if it were warm butter.
In more general terms the Brexit we were going to end up with was always going to be out of the Single Market and out of the Customs Union because of the two major groups within the leave campaign - the "End/Slow/Control Immigration" group (which precludes single market membership) and the "Stride the trade world like a colossus" group (which precludes customs union membership).
Remaining in the single market would be problematic for the EU as well as for the UK. Without a UK vote the Single Market is going to move rather quickly away from the British way of doing things, and that will cause significant friction. There will be a lot of resentment from both sides and there will be an increasing clamour from a resurgent UKIP (since they'd have something to do again) to leave.
The customs union would again be an issue, especially around agricultural tariffs. We'd be bound by a system that prevents us from reducing tariffs on our Scotch into India because the French want to protect their subsistence farmers, which again will be a cause of friction.
A "soft" Brexit wouldn't be stable as a result, and in the end would just work out to be a longer than planned transition period to a "hard" Brexit.
Europe needs to make some fundamental changes to make the EU work properly, and since they weren't interested in rolling it back to a simple trade bloc the only answer is an awful lot more Europe than there is now - fiscal transfers, common budgets, harmonised tax systems and all that goes with it.
The UK doesn't want more Europe (I think that we can all agree at least that the referendum result makes that clear at least) so the paths available are rather limited.
Robertj21a said:
Just popped in for the occasional read. Seems to just be the usual Remainers spouting a load of waffle without realising that the only other posters on here are usually other disillusioned Remainers ! The Leavers moved on some time ago.
Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
Same here, I only give this thread a desultory glance now, still the same playground antics by the same "nothing better to do all day" coterie, those with twin capital letters as the start of their username being the most lame brained inculcates.Get a life chaps, we're leaving the EU, there's no need for any further vote and we'll all be fine in due course.
If you look back through the thread there are actually a few interesting posts, but the vast majority of them are by occasional visitors, I would take that as being due to the fact that they have much more interesting things to do with their time, hence a higher intellect than those that just sit here all day.
gooner1 said:
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
There is no gain without pain, and I refute your "painless process " claim.‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
Who thought, or claimed negotiations would be easy?
Edited by Crackie on Sunday 21st January 12:38
Crackie said:
gooner1 said:
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
There is no gain without pain, and I refute your "painless process " claim.‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
Who thought, or claimed negotiations would be easy?
Thankfully, people like ORD are very very much the exception to the Remain voters I have met.
On a purely human note, whatever happened to Slasher? I might not agree with him on anything, but I do hope he's OK! Did he get banned for something?
andymadmak said:
Crackie said:
gooner1 said:
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
There is no gain without pain, and I refute your "painless process " claim.‘Leave’ is about as general a concept as can be.
It Hard Brexit is the only Leave option, the public should have the opportunity to think again. Many Leave voters were sold on the idea of a painless process.
Who thought, or claimed negotiations would be easy?
On a purely human note, whatever happened to Slasher? I might not agree with him on anything, but I do hope he's OK! Did he get banned for something?
I've had many run-ins/disagreements with him but like you I would hope he's OK.
Get ///ajd talking on cars, especially BMW's and he was a top bloke, and I did share a couple of car meets (If I recall correctly and BMW related) in his company, along with being on the same BMW forum as ///ajd albeit quite some time ago now.
The only obvious choice as a pseudonym for ///ajd doesn't really stack up, being a BMW and Porsche fan as ///ajd was, a hairdressers car wouldn't really cut the mustard
ORD said:
I cannot see any rational objection to a further vote once the options actually become clear.
Fear that one of the options may be "no Brexit" (unlikely, but maybe one would be essentially "Brexit in name only"). Even bigger fear that the will of the people would vote for it.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff