The Irish border
Discussion
Dr Jekyll said:
ATG said:
This thread seems to show that some of the resident Brexiteers have finally grasped the benefits of a customs union and freedom of movement.
Yet again a Remainer can't tell the difference between an FTA and a customs union.slow_poke said:
Good. Good. Great to see the border issue is finally being taken seriously enough to commence debate and discussion amongst the Brexit side.
For the last 18 months Irish diplomats, politicians and journalists have been calling out the problem a Brexit would cause on the border, and were trying to engage with UK powers to find a solution. Didn't happen. Weren't taken seriously. Pooh-poohed off. Finally, finally, it's dawning on those UK powers that little Ireland has a point and a veto and more importantly, they've got 26 mates at their back. Finally, the UK seems to be moving to engage on it.
You know what the Irish are observing? An upsurge in the old attitude of contempt and dismissal to them by the British establishment and population. Attitudes thought to have been laid to rest 20 years ago.
Ireland could have, and should have, been the UK's biggest, best and closest ally in the EU camp as and after the UK Brexited. But the UK is in danger of blowing that.
Except it hasn't played out like that. Im thinking ROI would like to see NI remain in the CU and SM, as they told us to bore off when we suggested a virtual border using various technologies to track movement. The ROI are obviously concerned about the relationship we have with them, it's a whopping great chunk of their entire trade, people commute across the border for work, and a ridiculous amount of lorries travel through the UK to get to the EU.For the last 18 months Irish diplomats, politicians and journalists have been calling out the problem a Brexit would cause on the border, and were trying to engage with UK powers to find a solution. Didn't happen. Weren't taken seriously. Pooh-poohed off. Finally, finally, it's dawning on those UK powers that little Ireland has a point and a veto and more importantly, they've got 26 mates at their back. Finally, the UK seems to be moving to engage on it.
You know what the Irish are observing? An upsurge in the old attitude of contempt and dismissal to them by the British establishment and population. Attitudes thought to have been laid to rest 20 years ago.
Ireland could have, and should have, been the UK's biggest, best and closest ally in the EU camp as and after the UK Brexited. But the UK is in danger of blowing that.
It actually wouldn't be the worst idea for the Irish to leave with us, we are that joined at the hip economically.
It's a bit of a headacratcher, no real easy solution, and made ten times harder without having a clue what sort of trade agreement we will end up with. That should be negotiated first.
The EU with their ridiculous step by step process. They are requesting the roof be built when there are no walls yet.
ATG said:
Marxist high jumper and leading Labour Party brexiteer Kate Hoey eloquently explained the scale of the problem by trying to pretend it didn't exist on the Today Programme this morning in discussion with Irish Senator Neale Richmond.
No one's every mistaken her for a political mastermind, but this morning she went full Trump; unprepared, rambling, incoherent nonsense.
When all else failed, she finally suggested that since the UK and Ireland had joined the EEC together, they should leave together. Err, OK. What an idiot.
The government's ministerial brexiteers are largely second-raters who have never previously been trusted with high office, but at least they weren't stupid enough to accept R4's invite.
I heard that as well ,Senator Richmond totally showed Hoey to be the fool that she is.No one's every mistaken her for a political mastermind, but this morning she went full Trump; unprepared, rambling, incoherent nonsense.
When all else failed, she finally suggested that since the UK and Ireland had joined the EEC together, they should leave together. Err, OK. What an idiot.
The government's ministerial brexiteers are largely second-raters who have never previously been trusted with high office, but at least they weren't stupid enough to accept R4's invite.
I thought he made some good points (in between silly b
h trying to shout him down) about how brexit threatens the economy of Irelandi fear we have lost potentially our best buddy in Europe
dazwalsh said:
It actually wouldn't be the worst idea for the Irish to leave with us, we are that joined at the hip economically.
It would make a lot of Brexiteers very happy if they were able to force the sovereign nation of Ireland to shoot themselves in the foot to do the UK a favour.Ireland has the rest of the EU backing them - they'll get their way no matter how much we kick and scream
We need them more than they need us.
Edited by mx5nut on Monday 27th November 21:00
Boosted LS1 said:
I think the UE are going to become unstuck shortly if they don't get a grip. Everybody wants a solution that works but i fail to understand why they think they're in the driving seat.
Well I think they think that by stopping the talks from moving on to Trade they will force the British government to give written binding assurances that they will not be worse of due to a choice made by the British.Boosted LS1 said:
I think the UE are going to become unstuck shortly if they don't get a grip. Everybody wants a solution that works but i fail to understand why they think they're in the driving seat.
Because they are in the driving seat.We need them. They need us, but can support each other while they wait for us to get our act together.
We tried acting tough, setting deadlines etc. It made us feel really cool. Then people realised we'd forgotten to make any plans for after the deadline and we just looked foolish
The grown ups are steering things now.
s2art said:
Depends on WTO rules. We cant just ignore WTO unless we unilaterally offer free trade and regulatory equivalence. Difficult if their product regulations are at odds with our own, it would mean us being forced to shadow EU regulation..
What makes you think we will not shadow EU regulations? If we want to trade with them at anything like the level we currently are then we'll have to stick with them.s2art said:
But who is proposing a hard border? Not the UK.
That's what brexit means, a hard border. We have decided that's what certain sections of the UK want. Other parts have pointed out the problem. We can't just throw a tantrum. If a hard border is imposed, and that's what brexit means, there will be problems in Ireland.
Funkycoldribena said:
citizensm1th said:
Funkycoldribena said:
I've mentioned it on the other thread,surely the Irish should have another referendum?
Why?Why stop at two anyway?
i fear you may well be disappointed
Dr Jekyll said:
mx5nut said:
Dr Jekyll said:
mx5nut said:
How will the UK stop people and goods from all over the EU wandering over the border and in to the country? Weren't we supposed to be taking back control?
We don't stop people from all over the world coming into the UK. If they want to work, or stay long term, that isn't enforced at the border.ash73 said:
Just define the hard border between NI and rest of UK. Easier to police anyhow; people have to get on a boat or plane.
Or just deal with the fact NI and RoI are separate countries and therefore require a border, and get on with it.
Or give NI back to Ireland, who cares.
Genius, I wonder why no one in power thought of that?Or just deal with the fact NI and RoI are separate countries and therefore require a border, and get on with it.
Or give NI back to Ireland, who cares.
mx5nut said:
It would make a lot of Brexiteers very happy if they were able to force the sovereign nation of Ireland to shoot themselves in the foot to do the UK a favour.
Ireland has the rest of the EU backing them - they'll get their way no matter how much we kick and scream
We need them more than they need us.
I think it's the other way round, and the ROI reliance on the UK, gives us an upper hand when it comes to the nitty gritty of trade. The numbers are huge. With the ROI leading the growth charts for the EU as well, a no deal would knock them for 6 and reflect badly on the whole of the EU.Ireland has the rest of the EU backing them - they'll get their way no matter how much we kick and scream
We need them more than they need us.
Edited by mx5nut on Monday 27th November 21:00
mx5nut said:
dazwalsh said:
It actually wouldn't be the worst idea for the Irish to leave with us, we are that joined at the hip economically.
We need them more than they need us.Edited by mx5nut on Monday 27th November 21:00
I'm a bit confused.
This little bit of Brexit seems to have involved every party making vociferous statements to the effect that they want no hard border between Ulster and the RoI, then providing some conditional clause that tacitly requires a hard border. There may then be a sub-clause inserted about how the hard border will cause the armed dheads to break out a tin of 'fkwitted bloodshed for no discernible reason and no evident objective'. Rinse and repeat for a year or so.
Are we now in the Kafka-esque situation where Juncker will refuse any settlement proposed by the UK that doesn't involve a border as it's a fundamental requirement of Maastricht/Lisbon, only to have his decision vetoed by the RoI because as one of the 27 they get a final say and they would rather declare war on Ruritania than allow the border to be reinstated? Answers on apostcard copy of the Lisbon Treaty please.
This little bit of Brexit seems to have involved every party making vociferous statements to the effect that they want no hard border between Ulster and the RoI, then providing some conditional clause that tacitly requires a hard border. There may then be a sub-clause inserted about how the hard border will cause the armed d
heads to break out a tin of 'fkwitted bloodshed for no discernible reason and no evident objective'. Rinse and repeat for a year or so.Are we now in the Kafka-esque situation where Juncker will refuse any settlement proposed by the UK that doesn't involve a border as it's a fundamental requirement of Maastricht/Lisbon, only to have his decision vetoed by the RoI because as one of the 27 they get a final say and they would rather declare war on Ruritania than allow the border to be reinstated? Answers on a
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