Another prove your innocence case

[anonymous-user]

Red 4 said:

...
But listening to and accepting the view point/ experience of others does not appear to be one of your strong points.

Snowflakery is everywhere. It's a debate. If people post BS, they may get challenged on it. The endless pleas of "poor us, we are straight white males living in a developed country - the most oppressed victim group in history" that we see on NPE deserve challenge.

[anonymous-user]

We're seeing a snowball of accusations again men in the most powerful positions in society at the moment. If that's not a subtle not towards male privilege existing then...

[Red 4]

[quote=La Liga

I've never known any 'women's interest groups' leading any police training.


[/quote]

I have (kind of).

Not led, and not "women's interest groups" per se - but victims of DV have shared their experiences during DV training. They were all women.
I know 'cos I was there and it can be quite harrowing to listen to.

There are male victims, obviously, and I've come across a few.
Never met any on a training course though.

[anonymous-user]

Red 4 said:

Not led, and not "women's interest groups" per se - but victims of DV have shared their experiences during DV training. They were all women.
I know 'cos I was there and it can be quite harrowing to listen to.

There are male victims, obviously, and I've come across a few.
Never met any on a training course though.

Yes, which is wholly appropriate. Especially as most female murders and serious harm are by their male partners. The appropriate application of DA policy prevents women being murdered.

I also remember when forces were raising awareness of male DA, how it was under-reported and what officers could do to help male victims come forward.

[Red 4]

Breadvan72 said:

Red 4 said:

...
But listening to and accepting the view point/ experience of others does not appear to be one of your strong points.

Snowflakery is everywhere. It's a debate. If people post BS, they may get challenged on it. The endless pleas of "poor us, we are straight white males living in a developed country - the most oppressed victim group in history" that we see on NPE deserve challenge.

I take your point.

However, I haven't seen too much snowflakery on this thread.

Are you suggesting that straight white males should just man-up and get on with it ?

Elsewhere, I see cries of oppression/ unfairness/ victimisation/ whatever from certain other sectors of society, yet no one appears to criticise them so much. I wonder why ?

Edited for speeling, daft phone, fat fingers and general stupidity (twice !).

Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 17th December 13:53

Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 17th December 13:55

[Pesty]

Reportedly the text that was the killer for her was to her freind saying

“ it wasn’t against my will”

So even though he had texts in his phone from her persevering him for sex she basically had to admit in writing that he didn’t do it.

Can the freind be charged with perverting the course of justice?

[anonymous-user]

steveatesh said:

Whilst men do dominate in the top jobs across the spectrum, what is frequently overlooked is that they also are over represented in the low paid, dirty and dangerous jobs. You can not compare the lives of a few exceptional men with the majority who are not.

/snip

And with men being disadvantaged across the education system ( in 2017, application rates via UCAS for men and women were 32.5% and 44.0% respectively. Entry rates were 27.8% and 37.7% for men and women respectively. The number of women exceeded the number of men by 36% as regards both applications and entry), government recently announced

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 17th December 11:40

You constantly say that the gender pay gap is due to the life choices of women

Can you not attribute the above to the life choices of men?

[saaby93]

Pesty said:

Reportedly the text that was the killer for her was to her freind saying
“ it wasn’t against my will”
So even though he had texts in his phone from her persevering him for sex she basically had to admit in writing that he didn’t do it.
Can the freind be charged with perverting the course of justice?

From here?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5187749/St...
you might as well quote the lot

mail said:

DAMNING RAPE FANTASY MESSAGES
September 2, 2015
To a male friend
Accuser: ‘You clearly don’t love me because you keep revoking my sexual advances, have I got to drug you?’
September 3, 2015
Accuser: ‘People need 3 things in life: food, water and sex.’
Accuser: ‘Sometimes sex is the number 1 priority, I’m really not joking to be honest I always think with my d*** lol.’
Accuser: ‘You know it’s always nice to be sexually assaulted without breaking the law.’
September 3, 2015
To a female friend in an exchange discussing her sexual experiences with Mr Allan.
Accuser: ‘It wasn’t against my will or anything.’
September 3, 2015
Accuser: ‘Love is nice but sex is essential. In all seriousness, I am so frustrated now there is zero chance of me lasting like nine months without sex? I’m struggling now. How the hell do people go months and months without doing it?’
October 12, 2015
To a male friend
Accuser: ‘You sexy f***er.
Male friend: The chocking [choking] I find it to [too] hot, guess we can be messed up together?’
On same date to female friend Accuser: ‘Well are you going to take me into the park and rape me? In the bushes.’
November 2015
A group WhatsApp conversation
Woman friend: ‘You guys are so sweet I feel like raping you all.’
Accuser: ‘Well 18 is a special number and we love you.’
Woman friend: ‘Stop because I seriously will rape you in your sleep.’
Accuser: ‘I told you it’s fine, I’d consent.’

Surely none of that's uncommon - you get people seeking stalkers too
The police and CPS must know that

Setting that aside was there evidence in this case that was likely to convict?

[anonymous-user]

saaby93 said:

Setting that aside was there evidence in this case that was likely to convict?

The CPS judged there to a realistic prospect of conviction which is why they authorised the charge.

[steveatesh]

cookie118 said:

steveatesh said:

Whilst men do dominate in the top jobs across the spectrum, what is frequently overlooked is that they also are over represented in the low paid, dirty and dangerous jobs. You can not compare the lives of a few exceptional men with the majority who are not.

/snip

And with men being disadvantaged across the education system ( in 2017, application rates via UCAS for men and women were 32.5% and 44.0% respectively. Entry rates were 27.8% and 37.7% for men and women respectively. The number of women exceeded the number of men by 36% as regards both applications and entry), government recently announced

Edited by steveatesh on Sunday 17th December 11:40

You constantly say that the gender pay gap is due to the life choices of women

Can you not attribute the above to the life choices of men?

Well you can attribute it to whatever your political preferences are of course, but there is plenty of evidence to support the view that much of the disadvantages for boys in the education system are systemic. For example the absence of male teachers especially in primary education, the blind testing of work where female teachers marked up the work of girls and down the work of boys, some of the curriculum, the so called “toxic masculinity” in young boys where their energy and style of play is viewed as being naughty just for starters. There’s plenty there to read up of course, it’s been known about for over 20 years and even Mrs May highlighted the plight of poor white boys in her speech.

But even if we were to accept your point as being it’s all down to the life choices boys make at age 3, 4 or 5 then please point me in the direction of the campaign to do something about it. The cries of “unfair” in the media and the various government bodies. The positive action in academia to involve boys more.

And if you ask should we do something about it then it depends upon your view of the impact and outcomes poor education amongst boys has on society when they become men. I wonder if it contributes to homelessness for example, or substance abuse, or the high suicide rate amongst men? The social costs of there are significant, let alone the emotional costs in families of the men affected.

Where is the equality agendas campaign to close the education gap between girls and boys?

Edited to add it’s not me who is claiming it, I am repeating the claims of various research into the gender pay gap and it’s causes.

[PurpleMoonlight]

La Liga said:

he CPS judged there to a realistic prospect of conviction which is why they authorised the charge.

Or they are adopting a scatter gun approach in the hope that some stick.

[anonymous-user]

steveatesh said:

Well you can attribute it to whatever your political preferences are of course,

/snip

But even if we were to accept your point as being it’s all down to the life choices boys make at age 3, 4 or 5 then please point me in the direction of the campaign to do something about it.

We’re getting off topic here but are you not guilty of the very same thing you accuse me of at the top? You’re believing all the sources that say it’s preference in girls/women and disadvantages in boys/men.

Also I as talking about choices men make at 18+ In the quote above, not 3/4/5 as you say I am.

[steveatesh]

cookie118 said:

steveatesh said:

Well you can attribute it to whatever your political preferences are of course,

/snip

But even if we were to accept your point as being it’s all down to the life choices boys make at age 3, 4 or 5 then please point me in the direction of the campaign to do something about it.

We’re getting off topic here but are you not guilty of the very same thing you accuse me of at the top? You’re believing all the sources that say it’s preference in girls/women and disadvantages in boys/men.

Also I as talking about choices men make at 18+ In the quote above, not 3/4/5 as you say I am.

Except those choices about education start at a very young age don’t they? By the time they are adults their education opportunities are very limited if the system has not worked so well for them.

There is plenty of research available on this, the outcomes are clear too with the gender gap in higher education and degrees being very obvious (see a previous post of mine with stats) and now the gender gap in pay where women are paid more up the age of about 30 until their own life choices kick in (see ONS)

And for clarity, I’ll finish with repeating that of course women and girls have issues but so do men and boys. Our current society addresses the former but not the latter, with the outcome of a lot of societies oroblems with men (suicide, homelessness, substance abuse, crime etc) as a result.

How fair do you think that is?

[anonymous-user]

steveatesh said:

Except those choices about education start at a very young age don’t they? By the time they are adults their education opportunities are very limited if the system has not worked so well for them.

There is plenty of research available on this, the outcomes are clear too with the gender gap in higher education and degrees being very obvious (see a previous post of mine with stats) and now the gender gap in pay where women are paid more up the age of about 30 until their own life choices kick in (see ONS)

And for clarity, I’ll finish with repeating that of course women and girls have issues but so do men and boys. Our current society addresses the former but not the latter, with the outcome of a lot of societies oroblems with men (suicide, homelessness, substance abuse, crime etc) as a result.

How fair do you think that is?

You’re still sticking to the idea that anything perceived as a disadvantage to women is a choice but for men it is not.

Do you not think that women’s ‘choices’ in career terms are shaped by their early experiences just as boy’s educational choices post 18 are?

And society is interested in solving men’s issues, you only have to look at the way in which male mental health is talked about (which is miles ahead of where it was even a couple of years ago) nowadays to see that.

[anonymous-user]

PurpleMoonlight said:

La Liga said:

he CPS judged there to a realistic prospect of conviction which is why they authorised the charge.

Or they are adopting a scatter gun approach in the hope that some stick.

I think the Russians hacked them...

The CPS use sexual offence specialists to make charging decisions. They're used to discontinuing matters on a probable daily basis. The CPS discontinue far more cases than they prosecute.

[anonymous-user]

You have to register to read this. It analyses the disclosure system and argues that it fails to secure fairness and also fails to tackle serious crime.

https://www.thetimesbrief.co.uk/users/39175-the-br...

[steveatesh]

cookie118 said:

You’re still sticking to the idea that anything perceived as a disadvantage to women is a choice but for men it is not.

Do you not think that women’s ‘choices’ in career terms are shaped by their early experiences just as boy’s educational choices post 18 are?

And society is interested in solving men’s issues, you only have to look at the way in which male mental health is talked about (which is miles ahead of where it was even a couple of years ago) nowadays to see that.

I’m unclear why you think that talking about men’s issues means a competition with women’s issues. It isn’t. The “talking” about male mental health is welcome but late in the day and of course action speaks louder than words. As the Nursing Times pointed out last year despite male suicide being the biggest cause of death for men under 45 successive governments have not spent a single penny on finding out why.

Plus with men being the victim in DA in around 40% of cases, there are only around 24 places for them compared to over 4000 for women. Despite that the government have just announced another £100 million for services for women and girls who are victims of DA. Men have a long way to go.

However, I’ll leave you with your beliefs, I’m sure they work for you.

[anonymous-user]

steveatesh said:

I’m unclear why you think that talking about men’s issues means a competition with women’s issues. It isn’t. The “talking” about male mental health is welcome but late in the day and of course action speaks louder than words. As the Nursing Times pointed out last year despite male suicide being the biggest cause of death for men under 45 successive governments have not spent a single penny on finding out why.

Plus with men being the victim in DA in around 40% of cases, there are only around 24 places for them compared to over 4000 for women. Despite that the government have just announced another £100 million for services for women and girls who are victims of DA. Men have a long way to go.

However, I’ll leave you with your beliefs, I’m sure they work for you.

I certainly don’t think that it’s a competition and I don’t believe that my words above say that I do. In fact I think that many men’s and women’s issues are interlinked, but I think that’s a topic for another day and thread.

[Bigends]

Plenty of information in relation to current disclosure problems here -

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/pu...

[Thorodin]

There is also the matter of signal retention of highly relevant correspondence which might benefit either side, not being appropriately or timely disclosed for whatever reason, being later used to fuel an otherwise unnecessary appeal and thereby costing additional huge funds to the public purse. There must be many cases now potentially under consideration for mounting appeals. I would be confident in believing that there exists no copy in Notes of the disclosure DC's instructions from a senior officer to not disclose the disc involved. Presumably (and fortunately for them) the CPS only 'reviewed' the disclosed material - thereby being misled as well as the court. I am guessing there will be more material missing in the days ahead. The only rolling head will be a DC's. See? It only serves to seed further distrust in the system!