Persimmon Homes -- CEO £100m Bonus...

[V8 Fettler]

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

Surely a place in the market for these over the rubbish thrown up in brick and block?

Brick & block can be used to make very good buildings- they just require good workmanship. If people are willing to pay for a good build then they can get one. Pay peanuts, expect crap.

.... which is part of the cause of the housing shortage problem. The onsite tasks need to be deskilled (because there are few skilled craftsmen) and the overall quality improved by production line manufacturing offsite.

[sugerbear]

ClaphamGT3 said:

ExPat2B said:

I am a shareholder in Persimmon, I have no issue with the reward.

Ceo Jeff Fairburn joined in 2013.

Since then the share price has gone from 8 pounds up to highs of 28 pounds, the current Market Cap is 8.07 Billion pounds - that is a 350% increase.

That means the current executive team have added 5.7 billion pounds of value to the company - against the backdrop of brexit.

That is 5700 million pounds. 1/57 of that doesn't seem to outrageous to me.

People forget that the some of the biggest shareholders in Persimmon are AXA and Vanguard. This isn't just fat cats getting fatter, its everyday people who invest in funds as part of their pension.

ps off with yer la-di-da talking sense, they don't want your sort round here.

This is Piston heads where spouting uninformed drivel matters.....

Share price when he joined was 1080p. Share price grew 2.3 times to its present day,
During the same period Taylor wimpey shares grew 2.35 times (85 > 200). Redrow 3.5 times. Bellway 2.8 times.

The shares have tracked the sector, no more, no less. Hardly stellar performance and points to a management team that are running the business well but they are not out performing the sector.

Does that deserve such as massive bonus?

[ClaphamGT3]

sugerbear said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

ExPat2B said:

I am a shareholder in Persimmon, I have no issue with the reward.

Ceo Jeff Fairburn joined in 2013.

Since then the share price has gone from 8 pounds up to highs of 28 pounds, the current Market Cap is 8.07 Billion pounds - that is a 350% increase.

That means the current executive team have added 5.7 billion pounds of value to the company - against the backdrop of brexit.

That is 5700 million pounds. 1/57 of that doesn't seem to outrageous to me.

People forget that the some of the biggest shareholders in Persimmon are AXA and Vanguard. This isn't just fat cats getting fatter, its everyday people who invest in funds as part of their pension.

ps off with yer la-di-da talking sense, they don't want your sort round here.

This is Piston heads where spouting uninformed drivel matters.....

Share price when he joined was 1080p. Share price grew 2.3 times to its present day,
During the same period Taylor wimpey shares grew 2.35 times (85 > 200). Redrow 3.5 times. Bellway 2.8 times.

The shares have tracked the sector, no more, no less. Hardly stellar performance and points to a management team that are running the business well but they are not out performing the sector.

Does that deserve such as massive bonus?

That is for the shareholders of Persimmon and the executives in question to agree. It isn't really anyone else's business.

[toon10]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Whatever it is, it's too much going by some of the most basic of cock ups in my Charles Church (Persimmon brand) new build.

"Are you a registered plumber? "
"Yup"
"Good, can you explain why there is water pouring from my light fittings in the hallway when the en-suite shower is on?"
"Ah, oh yeah, i forgot to connect th..."

[crankedup]

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

the timber framed houses appear to be the continued way forward. Not my field but it seems quaint that we still use brick block?

I suspect I've built more brick/block structures than you. Ditto timber structures.

There is merit in both but structural masonry is very forgiving & reliable.

Indeed, like I said it’s not my field. But in your own words, brick block can be a good build IF it’s built to good workmanship. This seems to me to be the problem, good workmanship cannot be afforded therefore we need to find alternatives which require a lesser skill on site construction.

[crankedup]

V8 Fettler said:

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

Surely a place in the market for these over the rubbish thrown up in brick and block?

Brick & block can be used to make very good buildings- they just require good workmanship. If people are willing to pay for a good build then they can get one. Pay peanuts, expect crap.

.... which is part of the cause of the housing shortage problem. The onsite tasks need to be deskilled (because there are few skilled craftsmen) and the overall quality improved by production line manufacturing offsite.

Absolutely, why we do not adopt the German and Scandinavia building techniques remains a mystery to me. There has to be strong commercial reasons behind the continued use of brick block, see max profit I suspect.

[ATG]

Pre-fab moves a chunk of the profit to the people manufacturing the components. Unless the traditional builders get into the business of running the factories that manufacture those components...

On the original topic, I don't particularly care that the renumeration committee ballsed this up. Sounds like they've all resigned. Their shareholders should all be pissed off (if they think clearly about what's happened). It would have been gracious of the CEO to say "I can't accept all of this; this was not the intended outcome."

But none of that is key. Once the firm made a huge windfall profit, whether a chunk of the profit goes to the mgmt or the shareholders is an internal matter for the company. The key issue is why the firm benefited from the windfall at all? Answer: the idiotic effort to give first time buyers more purchasing power. Apart from absolutely everybody, who would have guessed that that would just trigger house price inflation? Net result, government policy has shipped a load of the public's cash into the excess profit of a house builder. Well fking done.

Edited by ATG on Monday 18th December 12:37

[sugerbear]

ClaphamGT3 said:

sugerbear said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

ExPat2B said:

I am a shareholder in Persimmon, I have no issue with the reward.

Ceo Jeff Fairburn joined in 2013.

Since then the share price has gone from 8 pounds up to highs of 28 pounds, the current Market Cap is 8.07 Billion pounds - that is a 350% increase.

That means the current executive team have added 5.7 billion pounds of value to the company - against the backdrop of brexit.

That is 5700 million pounds. 1/57 of that doesn't seem to outrageous to me.

People forget that the some of the biggest shareholders in Persimmon are AXA and Vanguard. This isn't just fat cats getting fatter, its everyday people who invest in funds as part of their pension.

ps off with yer la-di-da talking sense, they don't want your sort round here.

This is Piston heads where spouting uninformed drivel matters.....

Share price when he joined was 1080p. Share price grew 2.3 times to its present day,
During the same period Taylor wimpey shares grew 2.35 times (85 > 200). Redrow 3.5 times. Bellway 2.8 times.

The shares have tracked the sector, no more, no less. Hardly stellar performance and points to a management team that are running the business well but they are not out performing the sector.

Does that deserve such as massive bonus?

That is for the shareholders of Persimmon and the executives in question to agree. It isn't really anyone else's business.

"Nevertheless, Nicholas and Jonathan recognise that the 2012 LTIP could have included a cap. In recognition of this omission, they have therefore tendered their resignations"

Which is why some kind of corporate legislation is needed to address past mistakes. Make an 800 million pound mistake as the chairman and you walk away care free. Unfortunately shareholders in pension schemes are the ones that have been robbed, regardless of how much the shares have increased they are paying out over 3/4 billion to 140 people where the majority of that money should have been returned to shareholders. And I will be one of those investors. I begrudge every last penny that has been wasted on someone who has just tracked the market.

[ATG]

sugerbear said:

"Nevertheless, Nicholas and Jonathan recognise that the 2012 LTIP could have included a cap. In recognition of this omission, they have therefore tendered their resignations"

Which is why some kind of corporate legislation is needed to address past mistakes.
...

I don't think that follows. The people best placed to oversee a given firm's corporate governance are the firm's owners and their representatives.

The shareholders were no more deserving of this windfall than the CEO. A wrong would not have been put right by distributing more of the windfall to the shareholders. Joe Public should not have had to shovel this money into the firm's coffers in the first place, but what can we do now? I for one don't want governments retrospectively taxing windfall profits either opportunistically or to try to mitigate misconceived policy. The uncertainty that would deliver to the business environment would be far more damaging than the problem trying to be addressed.

[BOR]

Persimmon have done NOTHING wrong. The whole point of Capitalism is to rip as much cash out of society as possible, which the Persimmon renumeration team have done exceptionally well.

If you don't like it, you have two choices:

1.Quit whining and continue to splay your legs for Capitalism. This wasn't the first time and it most definitely won't be the last time.

2. Elect a government whose leader wants to go to war on these trough pigs.

Your choice.

[ClaphamGT3]

sugerbear said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

sugerbear said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

ExPat2B said:

I am a shareholder in Persimmon, I have no issue with the reward.

Ceo Jeff Fairburn joined in 2013.

Since then the share price has gone from 8 pounds up to highs of 28 pounds, the current Market Cap is 8.07 Billion pounds - that is a 350% increase.

That means the current executive team have added 5.7 billion pounds of value to the company - against the backdrop of brexit.

That is 5700 million pounds. 1/57 of that doesn't seem to outrageous to me.

People forget that the some of the biggest shareholders in Persimmon are AXA and Vanguard. This isn't just fat cats getting fatter, its everyday people who invest in funds as part of their pension.

ps off with yer la-di-da talking sense, they don't want your sort round here.

This is Piston heads where spouting uninformed drivel matters.....

Share price when he joined was 1080p. Share price grew 2.3 times to its present day,
During the same period Taylor wimpey shares grew 2.35 times (85 > 200). Redrow 3.5 times. Bellway 2.8 times.

The shares have tracked the sector, no more, no less. Hardly stellar performance and points to a management team that are running the business well but they are not out performing the sector.

Does that deserve such as massive bonus?

That is for the shareholders of Persimmon and the executives in question to agree. It isn't really anyone else's business.

"Nevertheless, Nicholas and Jonathan recognise that the 2012 LTIP could have included a cap. In recognition of this omission, they have therefore tendered their resignations"

Which is why some kind of corporate legislation is needed to address past mistakes. Make an 800 million pound mistake as the chairman and you walk away care free. Unfortunately shareholders in pension schemes are the ones that have been robbed, regardless of how much the shares have increased they are paying out over 3/4 billion to 140 people where the majority of that money should have been returned to shareholders. And I will be one of those investors. I begrudge every last penny that has been wasted on someone who has just tracked the market.

So, as an investor, what due diligence did you undertake to satisfy yourself as to their corporate governance?

Be very careful bandying the term 'robbed' around. Absolutely no one was 'robbed' by what happened.

[blueg33]

BOR said:

Persimmon have done NOTHING wrong. The whole point of Capitalism is to rip as much cash out of society as possible, which the Persimmon renumeration team have done exceptionally well.

If you don't like it, you have two choices:

1.Quit whining and continue to splay your legs for Capitalism. This wasn't the first time and it most definitely won't be the last time.

2. Elect a government whose leader wants to go to war on these trough pigs.

Your choice.

BORE appears to be an apt username

[sidicks]

sugerbear said:

"Nevertheless, Nicholas and Jonathan recognise that the 2012 LTIP could have included a cap. In recognition of this omission, they have therefore tendered their resignations"

Which is why some kind of corporate legislation is needed to address past mistakes. Make an 800 million pound mistake as the chairman and you walk away care free. Unfortunately shareholders in pension schemes are the ones that have been robbed, regardless of how much the shares have increased they are paying out over 3/4 billion to 140 people where the majority of that money should have been returned to shareholders. And I will be one of those investors. I begrudge every last penny that has been wasted on someone who has just tracked the market.

Didn’t the majority of those shareholders approve the remuneration policy?

[crankedup]

BOR said:

Persimmon have done NOTHING wrong. The whole point of Capitalism is to rip as much cash out of society as possible, which the Persimmon renumeration team have done exceptionally well.

If you don't like it, you have two choices:

1.Quit whining and continue to splay your legs for Capitalism. This wasn't the first time and it most definitely won't be the last time.

2. Elect a government whose leader wants to go to war on these trough pigs.

Your choice.

Unfortunately the more these type of stories appear in the press the more likely it is that will will have the Labour Party as our next Government. Current PM has made noises regarding reining in Corporate greed, empty words imo. JC will certainly wade in and cause huge damage to the economy.

[John145]

crankedup said:

BOR said:

Persimmon have done NOTHING wrong. The whole point of Capitalism is to rip as much cash out of society as possible, which the Persimmon renumeration team have done exceptionally well.

If you don't like it, you have two choices:

1.Quit whining and continue to splay your legs for Capitalism. This wasn't the first time and it most definitely won't be the last time.

2. Elect a government whose leader wants to go to war on these trough pigs.

Your choice.

Unfortunately the more these type of stories appear in the press the more likely it is that will will have the Labour Party as our next Government. Current PM has made noises regarding reining in Corporate greed, empty words imo. JC will certainly wade in and cause huge damage to the economy.

Capitalism has delivered many things no other can...

50" curved 4K LED TVs
Star Wars
Cruise control
5 star collision ratings
Iphones
Dishwashers
Holidays to exotic places
Wine and whisky at affordable prices

Literally, everything in this world around us is built on capitalism. It has delivered peace, wealth and comfort. No other form of economic and political system in the world today can or has delivered this. Don't believe me? Prove me wrong with even one example.

However, capitalism must have its social responsibilities and so long as companies can justify the unjustifiable then the confidence in capitalism is questioned. Unfortunately at the current rate this could have us moving in the direction of communism and socialism which, to anyone with a bit of perspective, should horrify.

[crankedup]

^^^^

That’s the thing, communism offers something very like the current capitalism, well that’s exaggerated of course, but it’s those who work to make money and those that don’t to make money. Those at the top enjoy the most comfort.
Of course reality is not at that stage but just feels like it for an increasing number of people, apparently.

[Rovinghawk]

crankedup said:

good workmanship cannot be afforded therefore we need to find alternatives which require a lesser skill on site construction.

Prefabrication off site generally requires higher standards from the on-site team as there's no ability to adjust once the stuff arrives.

An example is the recent trend of holding down bolts with zero adjustment- try putting in a half-tonne set of hd bolts to +- 2mm, pouring & compacting concrete around them without moving them and then tell me that lesser skills are required.

Another example is where a 160m long building had to have every part of its foundations to +- 3mm. If you think achieving that doesn't require a very high level of skill then I suggest you think again.

[PugwasHDJ80]

BOR said:

Persimmon have done NOTHING wrong. The whole point of Capitalism is to rip as much cash out of society as possible, which the Persimmon renumeration team have done exceptionally well.

If you don't like it, you have two choices:

1.Quit whining and continue to splay your legs for Capitalism. This wasn't the first time and it most definitely won't be the last time.

2. Elect a government whose leader wants to go to war on these trough pigs.

Your choice.

This a failure of socialism not capitalism

The reason this happens is because if government intervention

You didn't find this happening in the thirties and forties house building before labour came along and ruined it by deciding to remove market economies.

I suspect that if we had competition in the sector then the big house builders wouldn't exist!

[Graemsay]

John145 said:

Literally, everything in this world around us is built on capitalism. It has delivered peace, wealth and comfort. No other form of economic and political system in the world today can or has delivered this. Don't believe me? Prove me wrong with even one example.

Mariana Mazzucato might disagree with you there.

A lot of the basic technologies that go into an iPhone (CPUs, TFT displays, GPS, lithium ion batteries) came out of government research projects. Her argument is that the government is willing to invest in these things, which have a longer timeline than venture capitalists would accept.

Oh, and the UK government funded early research into jet engines, and the first jet airliner. So you can thank them for your cheap holidays to exotic locations.

There's a bit about her thesis on the TED site, along with a talk.

I'm not suggesting that we go full Momentum, but I think that the claim that governments are a brake on innovation is wrong.

[V8 Fettler]

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

good workmanship cannot be afforded therefore we need to find alternatives which require a lesser skill on site construction.

Prefabrication off site generally requires higher standards from the on-site team as there's no ability to adjust once the stuff arrives.

An example is the recent trend of holding down bolts with zero adjustment- try putting in a half-tonne set of hd bolts to +- 2mm, pouring & compacting concrete around them without moving them and then tell me that lesser skills are required.

Another example is where a 160m long building had to have every part of its foundations to +- 3mm. If you think achieving that doesn't require a very high level of skill then I suggest you think again.

There's at least three different packing systems available to allow for misalignment of the foundations.