The U.S.A. Mass Shootings Thread
Discussion
dvs_dave said:
It would be interesting to see the breakdown of those mass shootings, into just two simple buckets. Gang related, and not gang related.
The overwhelming majority, (like 95%+) will be gang related. Why does that matter vs the “traditional” mass shooting where some incel/misfit/mentalist is behind it? The former is a very different problem to the latter and they require very different approaches to solve.
The gang related ones barely make the news as no one cares. The play stupid games, win stupid prizes approach. But this is where the true effort needs to be spent, and tighter gun control doesn’t do anything for this lot as they’re all using illegal firearms anyway. It would however improve the other category, but that’s not the biggest fish to fry, not by a long way.
Of course those stats would never be released as it’s a huge political hot potato, especially in these times. And it’s one that’s also plaguing UK politics. Although it’s just far too incendiary a topic to even hint at the reality of it, which makes it immeasurably harder to do anything about.
I very much doubt it’s 95% and even if it were gang related that doesn’t mean that some of those hurt or killed aren’t innocent. I have a friend who was shot in NOLA in a gang initiation, he and everyone else who was shot that day were just innocent bystanders at a Mardi Gras related street party and nothing to do with any gang.The overwhelming majority, (like 95%+) will be gang related. Why does that matter vs the “traditional” mass shooting where some incel/misfit/mentalist is behind it? The former is a very different problem to the latter and they require very different approaches to solve.
The gang related ones barely make the news as no one cares. The play stupid games, win stupid prizes approach. But this is where the true effort needs to be spent, and tighter gun control doesn’t do anything for this lot as they’re all using illegal firearms anyway. It would however improve the other category, but that’s not the biggest fish to fry, not by a long way.
Of course those stats would never be released as it’s a huge political hot potato, especially in these times. And it’s one that’s also plaguing UK politics. Although it’s just far too incendiary a topic to even hint at the reality of it, which makes it immeasurably harder to do anything about.
You can actually limit black market weapons through gun control. It’s too late for the US I would imagine because they’re so prolific but elsewhere getting hold of quality black market firearms can be very expensive because there simply aren’t many around. Supply and demand. You then price petty street criminals out of having decent weapons. It’s certainly true in the U.K, when the police seize guns in drugs raids here a lot of them look like antiques, if they work at all they’re often old revolvers and such like. Still deadly of course but it demonstrates the effect of very strict gun control on the black market.
dvs_dave said:
It would be interesting to see the breakdown of those mass shootings, into just two simple buckets. Gang related, and not gang related.
The overwhelming majority, (like 95%+) will be gang related.
Well, instead of guessing and plucking a figure out of the air to support your view, why not look at the statisticsThe overwhelming majority, (like 95%+) will be gang related.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
Last 72 hours
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/last-72-hours
Tell me how you get to 95% gang related?
CEDAR RAPIDS, Ia. — A 20-year-old Iowa man who allegedly shot and killed his parents and his younger sister at the family's Cedar Rapids home has been taken into custody, police said late Tuesday.
Officers who responded to the home after receiving a call at 8:23 a.m. Tuesday found three family members dead inside from gunshot wounds, the Cedar Rapids Police Department said.
ALBERTVILLE, Ala. (WAFF) - Two people were killed and two people were injured in a shooting at the Mueller Co. facility in Albertville Tuesday morning.The incident happened around 2:30 a.m. Tuesday morning at Mueller located at 956 Industrial Blvd. in Albertville.
Officers said for an unknown reason an employee of the industry began firing a weapon at fellow employees. During the shooting, two employees were killed and two more were injured.
David Lee Horton and Michael Lee Dobbins, both of Boaz, were pronounced dead at the scene.
11,000 suicides so far this year...
There is quite a bit of data out there. I CBA to go and find it all but I have mentioned it before. There are plenty of studies that have looked at mass shootings and have looked at excluding gang shootings and other criminal shootings which cant 100% be proven to be gang related but essentially are - i.e crim v crim.
Off the top of my head its something like 1/3 are by known gangs with known motive. Another 1/3 are crim v crim and then the other 1/3 everything else. Domestics, accidents, workplace shootings etc.
There is also debate on how the stats are presented as one of the most common misconceptions is that mass shootings leave dozens of dead bodies in the street and the perp is some blue collar worker with a grudge. I seem to remember someone doing a deep dive into the data and once they excluded the crime stuff and wanted to find the real nut jobs - which lets face it is what most people are referring too when they talk about mass shootings - the numbers were tiny. Cant remember exact details but it was something like <5% of "mass shootings" were actually what people perceive as one. IYSWIM.
Given the 300M population I think the number was <100 people killed. Don't quote me on that but it was something like that.
I think the general take away was don't join a gang or don't get involved with criminal activity and you are going to be a lot safer.
Being any ethnic group other than black helps too as 75% of all (edit) <mass shooting> gun deaths in the USA are black people. Which given that black people account for only 13% of the population I think that shows to me that the US government need to focus on educating that section of society to not get involved in criminal activity as that would be one hell of a win to focus some energy on a small section of society for a massive reduction in violence.
I just cant see why they are not doing this TBH as its obviously a problem with the younger generation other wise we would be seeing a drop off in shootings as the older generations die or get too old but we are actually seeing a rise so for me this is a problem that is within the young people.
Off the top of my head its something like 1/3 are by known gangs with known motive. Another 1/3 are crim v crim and then the other 1/3 everything else. Domestics, accidents, workplace shootings etc.
There is also debate on how the stats are presented as one of the most common misconceptions is that mass shootings leave dozens of dead bodies in the street and the perp is some blue collar worker with a grudge. I seem to remember someone doing a deep dive into the data and once they excluded the crime stuff and wanted to find the real nut jobs - which lets face it is what most people are referring too when they talk about mass shootings - the numbers were tiny. Cant remember exact details but it was something like <5% of "mass shootings" were actually what people perceive as one. IYSWIM.
Given the 300M population I think the number was <100 people killed. Don't quote me on that but it was something like that.
I think the general take away was don't join a gang or don't get involved with criminal activity and you are going to be a lot safer.
Being any ethnic group other than black helps too as 75% of all (edit) <mass shooting> gun deaths in the USA are black people. Which given that black people account for only 13% of the population I think that shows to me that the US government need to focus on educating that section of society to not get involved in criminal activity as that would be one hell of a win to focus some energy on a small section of society for a massive reduction in violence.
I just cant see why they are not doing this TBH as its obviously a problem with the younger generation other wise we would be seeing a drop off in shootings as the older generations die or get too old but we are actually seeing a rise so for me this is a problem that is within the young people.
Edited by red_slr on Wednesday 16th June 09:40
red_slr said:
Off the top of my head its something like 1/3 are by known gangs with known motive. Another 1/3 are crim v crim and then the other 1/3 everything else.
That sounds much more believable than "95%".red_slr said:
Given the 300M population I think the number was <100 people killed. Don't quote me on that but it was something like that.
If we take last 2019 (not using 2020 because Covid restrictions mean it's not especially representative) I make it about 200 killed in what I would describe as "public mass shooting incidents". That includes two probable terrorist attacks and a couple of "going postal" instances that involved fatalities outside of the place of work, though.
dvs_dave said:
Byker28i said:
As the nation marked the fifth anniversary of the Pulse nightclub massacre in Orlando on Saturday, it has a staggering and grim new statistic to contend with for 2021.
So far this year, we have suffered 272 mass shootings, according to Gun Violence Archive. From Friday afternoon to Sunday, at least 10 people were killed and another 50 were injured in nine mass shootings in six states, according to data compiled by CNN and the Gun Violence Archive.
An 18-month-old and 4-year-old were among the youngest victims, authorities said.
The total number of mass shootings is about 40% higher than at this point in 2020, and about 65% higher than at this point in 2019, according to data from the Gun Violence Archive. There were an estimated 194 mass shootings in the US during this same period in 2020, and an estimated 164 mass shootings in the US in this same period in 2019.
This weekend's mass shootings include incidents in Georgia, Illinois, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas and Washington state.
https://us.cnn.com/2021/06/12/us/us-mass-shootings...
It would be interesting to see the breakdown of those mass shootings, into just two simple buckets. Gang related, and not gang related. So far this year, we have suffered 272 mass shootings, according to Gun Violence Archive. From Friday afternoon to Sunday, at least 10 people were killed and another 50 were injured in nine mass shootings in six states, according to data compiled by CNN and the Gun Violence Archive.
An 18-month-old and 4-year-old were among the youngest victims, authorities said.
The total number of mass shootings is about 40% higher than at this point in 2020, and about 65% higher than at this point in 2019, according to data from the Gun Violence Archive. There were an estimated 194 mass shootings in the US during this same period in 2020, and an estimated 164 mass shootings in the US in this same period in 2019.
This weekend's mass shootings include incidents in Georgia, Illinois, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas and Washington state.
https://us.cnn.com/2021/06/12/us/us-mass-shootings...
The overwhelming majority, (like 95%+) will be gang related. Why does that matter vs the “traditional” mass shooting where some incel/misfit/mentalist is behind it? The former is a very different problem to the latter and they require very different approaches to solve.
The gang related ones barely make the news as no one cares. The play stupid games, win stupid prizes approach. But this is where the true effort needs to be spent, and tighter gun control doesn’t do anything for this lot as they’re all using illegal firearms anyway. It would however improve the other category, but that’s not the biggest fish to fry, not by a long way.
Of course those stats would never be released as it’s a huge political hot potato, especially in these times. And it’s one that’s also plaguing UK politics. Although it’s just far too incendiary a topic to even hint at the reality of it, which makes it immeasurably harder to do anything about.
Obviously they all start off as legal weapons. One suggestion recently was that it would be made a legal requirement for a gun owner to report if any of their firearms were lost or stolen - seems a perfectly reasonable requirement to me.
Although perhaps the US military ought to set a better example too - https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021...
rscott said:
red_slr said:
Source for that amended claim please?Come on fellas, the actual percentage isn't important and you all full well know it. Regardless, gang related are still the vast majority, yet it's a stat that's not easily, if at all found, and that's my point.
But don't let that stop you from turning your news cherry picking algorithms and death-by-1000-quotes approaches on me to prove in excruciating detail just how incorrect I am, and how clever and correct you obviously are. Typical PH sealioning pile-on....well done guys
But don't let that stop you from turning your news cherry picking algorithms and death-by-1000-quotes approaches on me to prove in excruciating detail just how incorrect I am, and how clever and correct you obviously are. Typical PH sealioning pile-on....well done guys
dvs_dave said:
Come on fellas, the actual percentage isn't important and you all full well know it. Regardless, gang related are still the vast majority, yet it's a stat that's not easily, if at all found, and that's my point.
But don't let that stop you from turning your news cherry picking algorithms and death-by-1000-quotes approaches on me to prove in excruciating detail just how incorrect I am, and how clever and correct you obviously are. Typical PH sealioning pile-on....well done guys
It is a bit important. By choosing 95% you were seeking to paint a picture of non gang related mass shootings being quite rare which simply isn’t the case. I’ve no doubt you’re right about gangs being involved in the majority, probably a sizeable majority but you went heavy with 95% and it was deliberate and transparent, own it.But don't let that stop you from turning your news cherry picking algorithms and death-by-1000-quotes approaches on me to prove in excruciating detail just how incorrect I am, and how clever and correct you obviously are. Typical PH sealioning pile-on....well done guys
dvs_dave said:
Come on fellas, the actual percentage isn't important and you all full well know it.
dvs_dave: "95% of mass shootings are gang related"Also dvs_dave: "actual statistics aren't importantly come in guys I was just being hyperbolic"
Here's a hint- don't make up bulls
t and then handwave away anyone who calls you on if you want to be treated with anything but derision or scorn.dvs_dave said:
Regardless, gang related are still the vast majority
I'm not sure whose standards ~33% constitutes "the vast majority" but it ain't mine.dvs_dave said:
But don't let that stop you from turning your news cherry picking algorithms and death-by-1000-quotes approaches on me to prove in excruciating detail just how incorrect I am
Here's a hint- don't post bks you're unable or unwilling to defend then. It's all very well whining about how all these nasty people are confronting you with facts, evidence and rational scepticism but nobody made you post nonsense you couldn't evidence. Your general inability to engage in the topic in a coherent and meaningful way is nobody's fault but your own.and how clever and correct you obviously are. Typical PH sealioning pile-on....well done guys
djc206 said:
I very much doubt it’s 95% and even if it were gang related that doesn’t mean that some of those hurt or killed aren’t innocent. I have a friend who was shot in NOLA in a gang initiation, he and everyone else who was shot that day were just innocent bystanders at a Mardi Gras related street party and nothing to do with any gang.
You can actually limit black market weapons through gun control. It’s too late for the US I would imagine because they’re so prolific but elsewhere getting hold of quality black market firearms can be very expensive because there simply aren’t many around. Supply and demand. You then price petty street criminals out of having decent weapons. It’s certainly true in the U.K, when the police seize guns in drugs raids here a lot of them look like antiques, if they work at all they’re often old revolvers and such like. Still deadly of course but it demonstrates the effect of very strict gun control on the black market.
As mentioned the actual % isn't important, regardless it's the vast majority.You can actually limit black market weapons through gun control. It’s too late for the US I would imagine because they’re so prolific but elsewhere getting hold of quality black market firearms can be very expensive because there simply aren’t many around. Supply and demand. You then price petty street criminals out of having decent weapons. It’s certainly true in the U.K, when the police seize guns in drugs raids here a lot of them look like antiques, if they work at all they’re often old revolvers and such like. Still deadly of course but it demonstrates the effect of very strict gun control on the black market.
You've mentioned this incident before, but I'm not sure how it wasn't gang related? If there wasn't a gang involved, it wouldn't have happened, irrespective of the victims caught up in it. And to be clear, this doesn't make me an apologist. Far from it. It's abhorrent that it even happened.
It would take a massive sustained effort and decades to have any meaningful effect on the numbers of firearms (legal or not) in circulation. Many very sensible proposals have been put forward, yet every time get shot down (haha) by the GOP in congress. Sometimes it feels like it would have to take a mass shooting in congress to effect any change, so ridiculously closed and stubborn the GOP are on the topic.
dvs_dave said:
As mentioned the actual % isn't important, regardless it's the vast majority.
You've mentioned this incident before, but I'm not sure how it wasn't gang related? If there wasn't a gang involved, it wouldn't have happened, irrespective of the victims caught up in it. And to be clear, this doesn't make me an apologist. Far from it. It's abhorrent that it even happened.
It would take a massive sustained effort and decades to have any meaningful effect on the numbers of firearms (legal or not) in circulation. Many very sensible proposals have been put forward, yet every time get shot down (haha) by the GOP in congress. Sometimes it feels like it would have to take a mass shooting in congress to effect any change, so ridiculously closed and stubborn the GOP are on the topic.
I have yes. The root cause might be gang culture but the incidents cannot be written off as crim on crim which most of us don’t care about because it’s one idiot killing another. As such they fall into both categories to my mind because the victims are innocent parties and one could easily argue that the perpetrators are no better than the nutters shooting up nightclubs, workplaces, universities or music festivals. Indiscriminate killing is indiscriminate killing.You've mentioned this incident before, but I'm not sure how it wasn't gang related? If there wasn't a gang involved, it wouldn't have happened, irrespective of the victims caught up in it. And to be clear, this doesn't make me an apologist. Far from it. It's abhorrent that it even happened.
It would take a massive sustained effort and decades to have any meaningful effect on the numbers of firearms (legal or not) in circulation. Many very sensible proposals have been put forward, yet every time get shot down (haha) by the GOP in congress. Sometimes it feels like it would have to take a mass shooting in congress to effect any change, so ridiculously closed and stubborn the GOP are on the topic.
It is a bit important I’m sorry, it just is.
Pretty much any measure would be a sticky plaster on a GSW (waaaayyy) at this point. More guns than people and they’re pretty well made things generally so last near as dammit forever if shown a bit of care so the number isn’t ever going to decline precipitously from anything other than stringent control. I honestly don’t think there’s much left that can be done that would be politically acceptable and effective.
red_slr said:
There is quite a bit of data out there. I CBA to go and find it all but I have mentioned it before. There are plenty of studies that have looked at mass shootings and have looked at excluding gang shootings and other criminal shootings which cant 100% be proven to be gang related but essentially are - i.e crim v crim.
Off the top of my head its something like 1/3 are by known gangs with known motive. Another 1/3 are crim v crim and then the other 1/3 everything else. Domestics, accidents, workplace shootings etc.
There is also debate on how the stats are presented as one of the most common misconceptions is that mass shootings leave dozens of dead bodies in the street and the perp is some blue collar worker with a grudge. I seem to remember someone doing a deep dive into the data and once they excluded the crime stuff and wanted to find the real nut jobs - which lets face it is what most people are referring too when they talk about mass shootings - the numbers were tiny. Cant remember exact details but it was something like <5% of "mass shootings" were actually what people perceive as one. IYSWIM.
Given the 300M population I think the number was <100 people killed. Don't quote me on that but it was something like that.
I think the general take away was don't join a gang or don't get involved with criminal activity and you are going to be a lot safer.
Being any ethnic group other than black helps too as 75% of all (edit) <mass shooting> gun deaths in the USA are black people. Which given that black people account for only 13% of the population I think that shows to me that the US government need to focus on educating that section of society to not get involved in criminal activity as that would be one hell of a win to focus some energy on a small section of society for a massive reduction in violence.
I just cant see why they are not doing this TBH as its obviously a problem with the younger generation other wise we would be seeing a drop off in shootings as the older generations die or get too old but we are actually seeing a rise so for me this is a problem that is within the young people.
Well quite, and good post. I think you're the only one to have actually understood my point and expanded on it in a meaningful fashion.Off the top of my head its something like 1/3 are by known gangs with known motive. Another 1/3 are crim v crim and then the other 1/3 everything else. Domestics, accidents, workplace shootings etc.
There is also debate on how the stats are presented as one of the most common misconceptions is that mass shootings leave dozens of dead bodies in the street and the perp is some blue collar worker with a grudge. I seem to remember someone doing a deep dive into the data and once they excluded the crime stuff and wanted to find the real nut jobs - which lets face it is what most people are referring too when they talk about mass shootings - the numbers were tiny. Cant remember exact details but it was something like <5% of "mass shootings" were actually what people perceive as one. IYSWIM.
Given the 300M population I think the number was <100 people killed. Don't quote me on that but it was something like that.
I think the general take away was don't join a gang or don't get involved with criminal activity and you are going to be a lot safer.
Being any ethnic group other than black helps too as 75% of all (edit) <mass shooting> gun deaths in the USA are black people. Which given that black people account for only 13% of the population I think that shows to me that the US government need to focus on educating that section of society to not get involved in criminal activity as that would be one hell of a win to focus some energy on a small section of society for a massive reduction in violence.
I just cant see why they are not doing this TBH as its obviously a problem with the younger generation other wise we would be seeing a drop off in shootings as the older generations die or get too old but we are actually seeing a rise so for me this is a problem that is within the young people.
dvs_dave said:
HM-2 said:
dvs_dave said:
Come on fellas, the actual percentage isn't important and you all full well know it.
dvs_dave: "95% of mass shootings are gang related"Also dvs_dave: "actual statistics aren't importantly come in guys I was just being hyperbolic"
Here's a hint- don't make up bulls
t and then handwave away anyone who calls you on if you want to be treated with anything but derision or scorn.dvs_dave said:
Regardless, gang related are still the vast majority
I'm not sure whose standards ~33% constitutes "the vast majority" but it ain't mine.dvs_dave said:
But don't let that stop you from turning your news cherry picking algorithms and death-by-1000-quotes approaches on me to prove in excruciating detail just how incorrect I am
Here's a hint- don't post bks you're unable or unwilling to defend then. It's all very well whining about how all these nasty people are confronting you with facts, evidence and rational scepticism but nobody made you post nonsense you couldn't evidence. Your general inability to engage in the topic in a coherent and meaningful way is nobody's fault but your own.and how clever and correct you obviously are. Typical PH sealioning pile-on....well done guys
dvs_dave said:
Ok Quotey McQuoteface; seems like you’ve gotten yourself so enraged you've fumbled the formatting of your beloved quotes. You're as predictable as you are exhausting. laugh
ThatcherMag said:
“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff