Sick & disabled to be targeted in massive welfare changes.

[Routemaster93]

The return of controversial welfare minister Ester McVey has sparked widespread fear among the most vulnerable in society. She has marked her return as an end to the "Easy times under Gaulk, Crabtree etc " between IDS resignation from the DWP to McVeys return.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news...

After her first day she has plans to :

Reduce incapacity payments and have tougher more regular ATOS tests every 3 months

Re-introduce workfare

Make sanctions more harsh and longer

McVey was part of the harsh welfare changes under Ian Dunkim Smith which saw thousands if disabled left to starve and many die after they their lost incapacity benefits due to dodgy ATOS tests which declared them fit to work.

"One example was diabetic war hero David Clapson who was wrongly declared fit to work, so lost his incapacity benefit and was forced to claim jobseeker allowance. He was sanctioned for 3 months after being late for a DWP appointment. He had no money and starved to death. They had even cut his electricity after he had no money to pay his electric bill and keep his life saving Insulin refrigerated"

Edited by Routemaster93 on Thursday 11th January 18:36

Edited by Routemaster93 on Thursday 11th January 18:39

[Pebbles167]

Sounds legit.

[voyds9]

Perhaps they could become party planners as within 24hrs of the appointment they have managed to get news coverage and the sympathy vote.

One figure I have not seen is how many of those declared fit to work were indeed fit.

All we do get to hear about are the tragedies. (why did he not apply for a hardship payment)

[TooMany2cvs]

Routemaster93 said:

"One example was diabetic war hero David Clapson who was wrongly declared fit to work...

So which bit of that made him somehow inherently unfit to work? His diabetes, or his previous job?

In fact, that's not what happened at all. Clapson died in July 2013, after having his JSA stopped for a month for missing two appointments at the job centre. Nothing whatsoever to do with fitness to work.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/vi...

[AshVX220]

voyds9 said:

Perhaps they could become party planners as within 24hrs of the appointment they have managed to get news coverage and the sympathy vote.

One figure I have not seen is how many of those declared fit to work were indeed fit.

All we do get to hear about are the tragedies. (why did he not apply for a hardship payment)

....and what was his real problem, diabetes does not stop people from working, I've had many colleagues with diabetes.

[Loyly]

Oh well.

[Jonesy23]

All that's missing is the obligatory

"A party political broadcast by the Labour Party"

at the end.

[98elise]

AshVX220 said:

voyds9 said:

Perhaps they could become party planners as within 24hrs of the appointment they have managed to get news coverage and the sympathy vote.

One figure I have not seen is how many of those declared fit to work were indeed fit.

All we do get to hear about are the tragedies. (why did he not apply for a hardship payment)

....and what was his real problem, diabetes does not stop people from working, I've had many colleagues with diabetes.

Same here. One of my colleagues is Type 1, as is Theresa May.

[Hoofy]

Bit mean of me, but I can't help thinking that someone in a powerful position needs to catch a spot of cancer and require some really fun chemo to the point of not being able to work for a decade due to some side-effects and on the verge of running out of cash. They just are so out of touch it is embarrassing.

I'll struggle to vote Tories at the next GE. 'Course, I can't vote Corbin, so I guess I'll vote something stupid.

[technodup]

I've been through the assessment process. As someone who does and always has worked it's a pretty demoralising and depressing indignity. But for many it's the holy grail. The waiting area was like a scene from Jeremy Kyle (The Too Bad For TV Special). Never have I seen so many shysters and general wrong 'uns swinging the lead.

These days you've got to be pretty fked to get any sort of sick/disability payments. Which is how it should be. Unfortunately there are obviously 'conditions' which are difficult or impossible to accurately assess, compliant GPs and other flaws which allow many many people to claim when really they should be entitled to nothing.

TL:DR The government should be working as hard as they can to weed the scroungers out but give the genuine what they need.

[Tartan Pixie]

At what point does the velocity of money produced by welfare overcome the money spent on welfare?*

This is the sort of question I would have thought was essential in producing a sensible data driven policy on welfare, however we are instead subjected to dimwits of all political persuasions who lack the basic education to even formulate the correct questions, let alone provide sensible answers.

So here we are yet again watching Cruella Deville vs Worzel Gummidge in a battle to see who's failed policy can appeal to the data-free prejudices held by the population at large. This country is run by demagogues too stupid to even realise they're demagogues.

<><><>

*With sufficient data I could answer the question at the top but I don't have that data, no one's going to give it to me and I don't care enough to go looking for it. Without said data I am totally unqualified to talk about the cost effectiveness of a welfare system, I do not know the optimum spend required to keep people out of the hospital and prison systems, I do not know the key routes out of the welfare system nor how we make it easier for people to access these routes out of poverty.

Without this this information how the bloody hell am I meant to make an informed decision?

Oh..that's right...I'm not meant to make an informed decision am I? I'm meant to sit here cheering on the inept policies of either the blue team or the red team so the collection of failed intelligences we call a parliament can keep running this country in to the ground.

Edited by Tartan Pixie on Thursday 11th January 19:25

[crankedup]

Routemaster93 said:

The return of controversial welfare minister Ester McVey has sparked widespread fear among the most vulnerable in society. She has marked her return as an end to the "Easy times under Gaulk, Crabtree etc " between IDS resignation from the DWP to McVeys return.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news...

After her first day she has plans to :

Reduce incapacity payments and have tougher more regular ATOS tests every 3 months

Re-introduce workfare

Make sanctions more harsh and longer

McVey was part of the harsh welfare changes under Ian Dunkim Smith which saw thousands if disabled left to starve and many die after they their lost incapacity benefits due to dodgy ATOS tests which declared them fit to work.

"One example was diabetic war hero David Clapson who was wrongly declared fit to work, so lost his incapacity benefit and was forced to claim jobseeker allowance. He was sanctioned for 3 months after being late for a DWP appointment. He had no money and starved to death. They had even cut his electricity after he had no money to pay his electric bill and keep his life saving Insulin refrigerated"

Edited by Routemaster93 on Thursday 11th January 18:36

Edited by Routemaster93 on Thursday 11th January 18:39

The Minister has been in post three days and has already identified the massive financial and moral issues which revolve around the existing policies. That’s some going!

[98elise]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

A lot of what they get will be to assist with their disabilities. They rightly get that regardless of their employment status.

[anonymous-user]

Tartan Pixie said:

At what point does the velocity of money produced by welfare overcome the money spent on welfare?*

This is the sort of question I would have thought was essential in producing a sensible data driven policy on welfare, however we are instead subjected to dimwits of all political persuasions who lack the basic education to even formulate the correct questions, let alone provide sensible answers.

So here we are yet again watching Cruella Deville vs Worzel Gummidge in a battle to see who's failed policy can appeal to the data-free prejudices held by the population at large. This country is run by demagogues too stupid to even realise they're demagogues.

<><><>

*With sufficient data I could answer the question at the top but I don't have that data, no one's going to give it to me and I don't care enough to go looking for it. Without said data I am totally unqualified to talk about the cost effectiveness of a welfare system, I do not know the optimum spend required to keep people out of the hospital and prison systems, I do not know the key routes out of the welfare system nor how we make it easier for people to access these routes out of poverty.

Without this this information how the bloody hell am I meant to make an informed decision?

Oh..that's right...I'm not meant to make an informed decision am I? I'm meant to sit here cheering on the inept policies of either the blue team or the red team so the collection of failed intelligences we call a parliament can keep running this country in to the ground.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 11th January 19:25

So, by your own admission you don’t have the data or qualification to make an informed decision but you feel able to condemn current policies?

[Tartan Pixie]

REALIST123 said:

So, by your own admission you don’t have the data or qualification to make an informed decision but you feel able to condemn current policies?

I'm able to condemn current policies in part because I'm interested in issues surrounding homelessness and have met people, particularly ex-armed forces, who have fallen through the cracks in society. Many folk would be shocked at the way vulnerable people often don't even claim benefits offered to them because to a person who is illiterate, has mental health problems, an addiction or is too much of a mentalist to fit in with civilian life the bureaucracy involved with claiming benefits is an impenetrable barrier. Meanwhile Chavvy Mc Chavface is claiming benefits for his 274th child despite only having fathered one child who he never sees. This is not a system that's working efficiently.

On top of this you have people like one chap I know who has serious mental health issues but wants to work. There is no way he could hold down a 9 to 5 but he's smart with computers so decided to start offering websites to local businesses. He wanted to do things properly so told the benefits people that he was *gasp* trying to earn some money and their response was to try and remove his disability and housing allowances, which in turn led to not just the destruction of his business but an attempted suicide and two horrible weeks where friends, family and god knows how many NHS staff had to deal with the fallout from a set of terrible decision by the benefits office.

This the benefits trap in action, something I saw a lot of in the few years I spent working for the patient transport service in Glasgow. It is incredibly difficult to stop people being ill if their livelihood depends on them continuing to be an invalid.

By the above experiences I feel qualified to say that there is a massive gap between the expected outcomes that politicians sell to us as the results of their policies and the actual results of these policies. I also have sufficient experience in the private sector to understand the relevance of data and how difficult it is to present data to decision makers in a manner which allows them to make a holistic decision.

The information gathering and parsing process for something as 'simple' as your local supermarket is immense and yet the single biggest collective endeavour we engage in, the wellbeing of our country, is devoid of anything like the data systems employed by Morrisons or Waitrose. Why is this?

I'll give you one reason why - Serious data driven policy such as you find in the private sector is completely alien to your average politician. They are all digital immigrants with neither the education nor the foresight to enter the 21st century.

The point here is not that I 'don’t have the data or qualification to make an informed decision'. The point is that our politicians are so ill educated that they not only don’t have the data to make an informed decision but are unaware that they lack data, therefore they continue to pursue policies despite the fact that their policies do not achieve the outcomes which they are selling to us voters.

Edited by Tartan Pixie on Thursday 11th January 21:22

[Silenoz]

Tartan Pixie said:

REALIST123 said:

So, by your own admission you don’t have the data or qualification to make an informed decision but you feel able to condemn current policies?

I'm able to condemn current policies in part because I'm interested in issues surrounding homelessness and have met people, particularly ex-armed forces, who have fallen through the cracks in society. Many people would be shocked at the way vulnerable people often don't even claim benefits offered to them because to a person who is illiterate, has mental health problems, an addiction or is too much of a mentalist to fit in with civilian life the bureaucracy involved with claiming benefits is an impenetrable barrier. Meanwhile Chavvy Mc Chavface is claiming benefits for his 274th child despite only having fathered one child who he never sees.

On top of this you have people like one chap I know who has serious mental health issues but wants to work. There is no way he could hold down a 9 to 5 but he's smart with computers so decided to start offering websites to local businesses. He wanted to do things properly so told the benefits people that he was *gasp* trying to earn some money and their response was to try and remove his disability and housing allowances, which in turn led to not just the destruction of his business but an attempted suicide and two horrible weeks where friends, family and god knows how many NHS staff had to deal with the fallout from a set of terrible decision by the benefits office.

This the benefits trap in action, something I saw a lot of in the few years I spent working for the patient transport service in Glasgow. It is incredibly difficult to stop people being ill if their livelihood depends on them continuing to be an invalid.

By the above experiences I feel qualified to say that there is a massive gap between the expected outcomes that politicians sell to us as the results of their policies and the actual results of these policies. I also have sufficient experience in to private sector to understand the relevance of data and how difficult it is to present data to decision makers in a manner which allows them to make a holistic decision.

The information gathering and parsing process for something as 'simple' as your local supermarket is immense and yet the single biggest collective endeavour we engage in, the wellbeing of our country, is devoid of anything like the data systems employed by Morrisons or Waitrose. Why is this?

I'll give you one reason why - Serious data driven policy such as you find in the private sector is completely alien to your average politician. They are all digital immigrants with neither the education nor the foresight to enter the 21st century.

The point here is not that I 'don’t have the data or qualification to make an informed decision'. The point is that our politicians are so ill educated that they not only don’t have the data to make an informed decision but are unaware that they lack data, therefore they continue to pursue policies despite the fact that their policies do not achieve the outcomes which they are selling to us voters.

Thanks Tartan Pixie, that is one of the most comprehensive summaries of the issue with our current political system I've ever read!

[jjlynn27]

Silenoz said:

Tartan Pixie said:

REALIST123 said:

So, by your own admission you don’t have the data or qualification to make an informed decision but you feel able to condemn current policies?

I'm able to condemn current policies in part because I'm interested in issues surrounding homelessness and have met people, particularly ex-armed forces, who have fallen through the cracks in society. Many people would be shocked at the way vulnerable people often don't even claim benefits offered to them because to a person who is illiterate, has mental health problems, an addiction or is too much of a mentalist to fit in with civilian life the bureaucracy involved with claiming benefits is an impenetrable barrier. Meanwhile Chavvy Mc Chavface is claiming benefits for his 274th child despite only having fathered one child who he never sees.

On top of this you have people like one chap I know who has serious mental health issues but wants to work. There is no way he could hold down a 9 to 5 but he's smart with computers so decided to start offering websites to local businesses. He wanted to do things properly so told the benefits people that he was *gasp* trying to earn some money and their response was to try and remove his disability and housing allowances, which in turn led to not just the destruction of his business but an attempted suicide and two horrible weeks where friends, family and god knows how many NHS staff had to deal with the fallout from a set of terrible decision by the benefits office.

This the benefits trap in action, something I saw a lot of in the few years I spent working for the patient transport service in Glasgow. It is incredibly difficult to stop people being ill if their livelihood depends on them continuing to be an invalid.

By the above experiences I feel qualified to say that there is a massive gap between the expected outcomes that politicians sell to us as the results of their policies and the actual results of these policies. I also have sufficient experience in to private sector to understand the relevance of data and how difficult it is to present data to decision makers in a manner which allows them to make a holistic decision.

The information gathering and parsing process for something as 'simple' as your local supermarket is immense and yet the single biggest collective endeavour we engage in, the wellbeing of our country, is devoid of anything like the data systems employed by Morrisons or Waitrose. Why is this?

I'll give you one reason why - Serious data driven policy such as you find in the private sector is completely alien to your average politician. They are all digital immigrants with neither the education nor the foresight to enter the 21st century.

The point here is not that I 'don’t have the data or qualification to make an informed decision'. The point is that our politicians are so ill educated that they not only don’t have the data to make an informed decision but are unaware that they lack data, therefore they continue to pursue policies despite the fact that their policies do not achieve the outcomes which they are selling to us voters.

Thanks Tartan Pixie, that is one of the most comprehensive summaries of the issue with our current political system I've ever read!

TP's posts are always well worth the read, even if you don't agree with some of them.

[Tartan Pixie]

jjlynn27 said:

Silenoz said:

Thanks Tartan Pixie, that is one of the most comprehensive summaries of the issue with our current political system I've ever read!

TP's posts are always well worth the read, even if you don't agree with some of them.

Awww, I feel all warm and fuzzy now, though the cru des cotes du rhone I'm drinking may also be responsible

[Rovinghawk]

Routemaster93 said:

she has plans to :
Reduce incapacity payments and have tougher more regular ATOS tests every 3 months

So we ensure that those getting free money actually deserve it? And they have to take a bit of a reduction in living standards just like those that work?

Routemaster93 said:

Re-introduce workfare

So instead of free money they have to do something in order to get it? Like work? I have news for you- I have to jump through increasingly harder hoops to pay money in so I have little sympathy for those who have to do something to take money out.

Routemaster93 said:

Make sanctions more harsh and longer

So people who don't comply with the rules don't get given any money? The horror! I remember one guy on the radio whingeing that he'd been sanctioned for not applying for any jobs. Tough.

Routemaster93 said:

McVey was part of the harsh welfare changes under Ian Dunkim Smith which saw thousands if disabled left to starve and many die

bks. Though the system has faults we do not condemn anyone in this country to starve to death; this is emotive bullst.

Routemaster93 said:

"One example was diabetic war hero David Clapson who was wrongly declared fit to work, so lost his incapacity benefit and was forced to claim jobseeker allowance. He was sanctioned for 3 months after being late for a DWP appointment. He had no money and starved to death. They had even cut his electricity after he had no money to pay his electric bill and keep his life saving Insulin refrigerated"

As stated earlier, this is a lie.

Edited by Rovinghawk on Thursday 11th January 22:24

[stevesingo]

Misleading title/headline.

"Dishonest idle fold to be targeted in massive welfare changes" would be more accurate.

Some genuinely disabled and long term sick will suffer (only initially hopefully), but they are not the target.