Momentum finally takes control of Labour

Momentum finally takes control of Labour

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Russian Troll Bot

24,942 posts

226 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Dicky Knee said:
SpeckledJim said:
The Tories want their arses kicking for the terrible job they are doing at publicising what the current labour party wants to do to the majority of normal people in the country.

If the centrist half of Labour voters and centrist half of Conservative voters are actually pretty close together in the middle of society, economics and prosperity, there's no way that any of them should be finding any succour in the current ambitions of the Labour Party, but nobody seems to have noticed.

Responsibility for that ignorance/ambivalence lies with the Tories, who should be running Corbyn and particularly McDonnell, absolutely ragged. But aren't.
I think a big problem for the Tories is that Labour haven't really said what they are going to do-just vague statements; properly fund the NHS, more social care, build houses etc. Nothing to really attack them on. A good strategy from Labour's viewpoint-stand back and watch the government struggle.
Considering that your career can now be ended by tweets sent 15 years ago, with all the outrageous things he's said you'd think McDonnell would be the easiest target in the world.

Andehh

7,107 posts

205 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
The Tories want their arses kicking for the terrible job they are doing at publicising what the current labour party wants to do to the majority of normal people in the country.

Responsibility for that ignorance/ambivalence lies with the Tories, who should be running Corbyn and particularly McDonnell, absolutely ragged. But aren't.
Well said.

Tories are handing it to them on the plate, Labour/Momentum/Cobyn have played an absolutely blinder the last year and have more or less got the next GE in the bag. Genuine credit to them.

The moon could implode and the seas wash us all a way & Corbyn would still win 'the moral victory' by blaming May/Tories for letting it happen through cost cutting, privatisation and nasty unnecessary austerity. And the NHS.

Who the fk does the Tories PR/media campaign!? Have they been checked for a pulse?



Northbloke

643 posts

218 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
The always popular "None of the Above" party would now win in a landslide.

The 24 hour news and hounding of anyone in the public eye going back years (juicy material all now available on Social media) means no-one in their right mind would go into politics. Certainly not anyone of quality you would actually like to see doing it. A very sad state of affairs that is only going to get worse.

The fact that this void can be filled by shouty activist dinosaurs from 40 years ago and Corbyn (thicko Corbyn for gawd's sake!) is hailed as the Messiah is deeply depressing.

The 2 party system seems to have regained its dominance after recent wobbles so any change would have to come under those banners I reckon (like Trump successfully used the Republican party in the US). Too hard to get past the "vote for a donkey with a rosette" brigade otherwise.

But I really can't see a Momentum led Labour winning anytime soon. They've tried before and been royally stuffed (hence the rise of Blair) and nothing substantial has changed to increase their appeal to my eyes. Headmistress Theresa is tainted so when she's got Brexit sorted install a fresh new leader in time for the next election and let's move on. (But Who?!)

captain_cynic

11,872 posts

94 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
The Tories want their arses kicking for the terrible job they are doing at publicising what the current labour party wants to do to the majority of normal people in the country.

If the centrist half of Labour voters and centrist half of Conservative voters are actually pretty close together in the middle of society, economics and prosperity, there's no way that any of them should be finding any succour in the current ambitions of the Labour Party, but nobody seems to have noticed.

Responsibility for that ignorance/ambivalence lies with the Tories, who should be running Corbyn and particularly McDonnell, absolutely ragged. But aren't.
Both parties have the same issue, the centrists are trying to keep the extremists in line and are struggling at it. The Tories should be walking all over Corbyn but cant keep their own house in order enough to do it and Corbyn is taking full advantage of it.

A lot of centrist Labour voters would vote Tory if they weren't letting the ultra-conservatives run roughshod over them. Centrists have been the controlling swing voters in recent decades but right now cant find a party worth voting for, which is why we ended up with a hung parliament and DUP getting effective control.

Vice versa, centrist conservatives would be voting Labour if they got rid of Corbyn. As it stands, he has a chance of being elected simply because of the sheer incompetence of the Tories (and I don't like that scenario either).

crankedup

25,764 posts

242 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
crankedup said:
The writing has been on the wall for years, the rise of Socialism, true Socialism. It’s been talked of for years in this forum and roundly dismissed with laughter and scorn, not laughing now!
This same arrogance and denial has been displayed in the Tory ranks throughout the Country.
Nobody can say that they are surprised can they?
imo, if Corbyn is elected, and I think that this is more likely than not, this Country will be inflicted severe damage both financially and socially.
The Tories want their arses kicking for the terrible job they are doing at publicising what the current labour party wants to do to the majority of normal people in the country.

If the centrist half of Labour voters and centrist half of Conservative voters are actually pretty close together in the middle of society, economics and prosperity, there's no way that any of them should be finding any succour in the current ambitions of the Labour Party, but nobody seems to have noticed.

Responsibility for that ignorance/ambivalence lies with the Tories, who should be running Corbyn and particularly McDonnell, absolutely ragged. But aren't.
Agreed 100%

Gargamel

14,957 posts

260 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Andehh said:
Well said.

Tories are handing it to them on the plate, Labour/Momentum/Cobyn have played an absolutely blinder the last year and have more or less got the next GE in the bag. Genuine credit to them.

The moon could implode and the seas wash us all a way & Corbyn would still win 'the moral victory' by blaming May/Tories for letting it happen through cost cutting, privatisation and nasty unnecessary austerity. And the NHS.

Who the fk does the Tories PR/media campaign!? Have they been checked for a pulse?
Corbyn is unelectable as a Prime Minister. There are still enough people alive who remember a reasonably socialist Labour Government and what nationalised industries were actually like to ensure a JC led Labour party won't ever get back in. Certainly not with the calibre of shadow ministers he has at his disposal. No one outside Hackney would ever vote for the Abbotumus.

Plus despite JC's insistence that he expects to be PM any moment now, he will have to wait four more years, and he is an old man already.

More likely to retire or have health issues than win a GE.



SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Gargamel said:
Andehh said:
Well said.

Tories are handing it to them on the plate, Labour/Momentum/Cobyn have played an absolutely blinder the last year and have more or less got the next GE in the bag. Genuine credit to them.

The moon could implode and the seas wash us all a way & Corbyn would still win 'the moral victory' by blaming May/Tories for letting it happen through cost cutting, privatisation and nasty unnecessary austerity. And the NHS.

Who the fk does the Tories PR/media campaign!? Have they been checked for a pulse?
Corbyn is unelectable as a Prime Minister. There are still enough people alive who remember a reasonably socialist Labour Government and what nationalised industries were actually like to ensure a JC led Labour party won't ever get back in. Certainly not with the calibre of shadow ministers he has at his disposal. No one outside Hackney would ever vote for the Abbotumus.

Plus despite JC's insistence that he expects to be PM any moment now, he will have to wait four more years, and he is an old man already.

More likely to retire or have health issues than win a GE.
I wish I shared your optimism. He didn't miss by much last time, and the drift has been in his direction since then.

Whether it's Corbyn or another, I wouldn't bet against Labour next time round, if nothing significant changes between now and then.

Gargamel

14,957 posts

260 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
I wish I shared your optimism. He didn't miss by much last time, and the drift has been in his direction since then.

Whether it's Corbyn or another, I wouldn't bet against Labour next time round, if nothing significant changes between now and then.
The Conservatives have 57 more MPs than Labour. That is quite a gap

esxste

3,664 posts

105 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
The chief brexiteers are all right wing Tories.

Theres some factors that need to be remembered: Traditional labour voters voted for Brexit because they'd had 30 years of Tories and and Tory-lite, and wanted true change.

Then there is the young vote. Generation Rent. Saddled with massive student loans, wealth distribution disproportionately skewed not only by class but by age, housing situation that seems designed to screw them over and keep them from owning a home.

The Tories are reaping what they've sown. If they mess Brexit up; I can't see how anyone will trust them in Government for a generation or more.

And the alternative is Corbyn, and socialist policies. For all the talk of project fear about Brexit, its not hard to see how some are starting to see a Project Fear being conducted about socialism and Corbyn. We haven't had a true socialist in power for 40 years. Many voters have never seen it or remember it.




deadslow

7,960 posts

222 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
The Tories want their arses kicking for the terrible job they are doing
there, corrected for you wink

Frankthered

1,619 posts

179 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Dicky Knee said:
I think a big problem for the Tories is that Labour haven't really said what they are going to do-just vague statements; properly fund the NHS, more social care, build houses etc. Nothing to really attack them on. A good strategy from Labour's viewpoint-stand back and watch the government struggle.
yes It seems they've figured out that that's how to win elections these days - think about it. Leave won the referendum while sticking to no more definition than "leave means leave", Trump said (and still says) whatever he feels like, contradicts himself ten minutes later and denies all of it the next day, dismissing it as fake news.

Macron also got elected on very vague policies that now seem to be falling apart.

If, as a politician, your policies are vague, it allows the voter to fill in the gaps and hear exactly what they want so you win the vote, even if you do end up in the st because there's no substance to what you said!

Starfighter

4,908 posts

177 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Momentum have gained the position they have by actually taking part in the political process. The grass roots of all of the major parties are becoming less involved and less vocal. In the absence of other voices, they will be heard and not held to scrutiny.

Decisions are taken by those who show up.

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Gargamel said:
SpeckledJim said:
I wish I shared your optimism. He didn't miss by much last time, and the drift has been in his direction since then.

Whether it's Corbyn or another, I wouldn't bet against Labour next time round, if nothing significant changes between now and then.
The Conservatives have 57 more MPs than Labour. That is quite a gap
True enough. But I can't at the moment see why the Tories can't/won't take another step backwards in the next election as big as the one they took in the last one.

Omnishambles at the moment.

SpielBoy

174 posts

247 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
esxste said:
The chief brexiteers are all right wing Tories.

Theres some factors that need to be remembered: Traditional labour voters voted for Brexit because they'd had 30 years of Tories and and Tory-lite, and wanted true change.

Then there is the young vote. Generation Rent. Saddled with massive student loans, wealth distribution disproportionately skewed not only by class but by age, housing situation that seems designed to screw them over and keep them from owning a home.

The Tories are reaping what they've sown. If they mess Brexit up; I can't see how anyone will trust them in Government for a generation or more.

And the alternative is Corbyn, and socialist policies. For all the talk of project fear about Brexit, its not hard to see how some are starting to see a Project Fear being conducted about socialism and Corbyn. We haven't had a true socialist in power for 40 years. Many voters have never seen it or remember it.


Anyone under 40 really won't remember the 1970's Labor governments

What they do know about is unaffordable housing and being pulled out of the EU against their will.

They won't vote Tory because of Brexit.

They will vote Labor in the hope that they will address housing and other social issues.

Last year I thought Corbyn was unelectable - this year I am not so sure.

The more the Tories go to the right the more they make Corbyn becoming Prime Minister a possibility.

Personally I find voting for either of them quite appalling

But if I was absolutely forced to choose between them - I would vote Labor

The Dangerous Elk

Original Poster:

4,642 posts

76 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
SpielBoy said:
But if I was absolutely forced to choose between them - I would vote Labor
Trade in your toys and be ready to pay much much much more tax then or get a job within the public sector .....enjoy being soaked.

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Labour did well in June but they didn't really go into the election with many specific batst crazy policies - it was more general wishy-washy nonsense. They won't be able to get away with that next time round - they'll have to put all their cards on the table and their momentum-esq policies will scare a lot of middle England voters off.

Johnnytheboy

24,498 posts

185 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
For the love of God, it's LaboUr.

JagLover

42,262 posts

234 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
esxste said:
The chief brexiteers are all right wing Tories.

Are they?

Gove and Boris were historically seen as being on the liberal wing of the Tory party, Gove being a full part of Cameron's modernization project.

Davis has always been strongly in favour of civil liberties which puts him firmly on one side of the libertarian authoritarian axis.

I'm sure there are plenty of Ministers with traditional right wing views who backed Remain.

SpielBoy

174 posts

247 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
The Dangerous Elk said:
SpielBoy said:
But if I was absolutely forced to choose between them - I would vote Labor
Trade in your toys and be ready to pay much much much more tax then or get a job within the public sector .....enjoy being soaked.
Sometimes it isn't all about me me me

Sometimes it is about wanting a better society

I am not certain Labor will deliver that

But I am pretty darn sure the Torys won't - well not until they see the electoral consequences of the path they are currently on.

The Dangerous Elk

Original Poster:

4,642 posts

76 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
SpielBoy said:
Sometimes it isn't all about me me me

Sometimes it is about wanting a better society

I am not certain Labor will deliver that

But I am pretty darn sure the Torys won't - well not until they see the electoral consequences of the path they are currently on.
Trouble is there will be no "Me" left to worry about with Marxists in power will there