Momentum finally takes control of Labour
Discussion
Frankthered said:
Dicky Knee said:
I think a big problem for the Tories is that Labour haven't really said what they are going to do-just vague statements; properly fund the NHS, more social care, build houses etc. Nothing to really attack them on. A good strategy from Labour's viewpoint-stand back and watch the government struggle.
It seems they've figured out that that's how to win elections these days - think about it. Leave won the referendum while sticking to no more definition than "leave means leave", Trump said (and still says) whatever he feels like, contradicts himself ten minutes later and denies all of it the next day, dismissing it as fake news.Macron also got elected on very vague policies that now seem to be falling apart.
If, as a politician, your policies are vague, it allows the voter to fill in the gaps and hear exactly what they want so you win the vote, even if you do end up in the s
t because there's no substance to what you said!ks, and there were plenty of policies with committed expenditure but zero costings nor revenues to support. I couldn't figure out why they weren't hammering that blatant lie every single day - until it was pointed out to me that at the time, with Labour being seen as such underdogs, it came across as 'nasty' to swing voters. That won't happen next time...
Sway said:
Frankthered said:
Dicky Knee said:
I think a big problem for the Tories is that Labour haven't really said what they are going to do-just vague statements; properly fund the NHS, more social care, build houses etc. Nothing to really attack them on. A good strategy from Labour's viewpoint-stand back and watch the government struggle.
It seems they've figured out that that's how to win elections these days - think about it. Leave won the referendum while sticking to no more definition than "leave means leave", Trump said (and still says) whatever he feels like, contradicts himself ten minutes later and denies all of it the next day, dismissing it as fake news.Macron also got elected on very vague policies that now seem to be falling apart.
If, as a politician, your policies are vague, it allows the voter to fill in the gaps and hear exactly what they want so you win the vote, even if you do end up in the s
t because there's no substance to what you said!ks, and there were plenty of policies with committed expenditure but zero costings nor revenues to support. I couldn't figure out why they weren't hammering that blatant lie every single day - until it was pointed out to me that at the time, with Labour being seen as such underdogs, it came across as 'nasty' to swing voters. That won't happen next time...
Sway said:
Agreed. However, in the last GE there were mantras used by Labour that could have been ripped through with ease - "fully costed manifesto", except the figures that were given were easily shown to be bks, and there were plenty of policies with committed expenditure but zero costings nor revenues to support. I couldn't figure out why they weren't hammering that blatant lie every single day - until it was pointed out to me that at the time, with Labour being seen as such underdogs, it came across as 'nasty' to swing voters.
That won't happen next time...
Why not?ks, and there were plenty of policies with committed expenditure but zero costings nor revenues to support. I couldn't figure out why they weren't hammering that blatant lie every single day - until it was pointed out to me that at the time, with Labour being seen as such underdogs, it came across as 'nasty' to swing voters. That won't happen next time...
Social media will still no doubt be firmly controlled by Labour and the BBC and the like will be what they always have been.
The traditional print media, which provided a more pluralistic media environment, is in rapid decline.
The Dangerous Elk said:
SpielBoy said:
Sometimes it isn't all about me me me
Sometimes it is about wanting a better society
I am not certain Labor will deliver that
But I am pretty darn sure the Torys won't - well not until they see the electoral consequences of the path they are currently on.
Trouble is there will be no "Me" left to worry about with Marxists in power will thereSometimes it is about wanting a better society
I am not certain Labor will deliver that
But I am pretty darn sure the Torys won't - well not until they see the electoral consequences of the path they are currently on.
king" and following it with "bds" and even he says Corbyn would be absolutely ruinous.mx5nut said:
crankedup said:
imo, if Corbyn is elected, and I think that this is more likely than not, this Country will be inflicted severe damage both financially and socially.
Sounds like Project Fear talking. Don't you like democracy?He’s simply stating an opinion of the impact of a Corbyn government. HTH
deadslow said:
no, not true at all. The Tories didn't have time to attack Labour because they were too busy committing political suicide through awful policies and sheer bloody incompetence. Could you not see that?
^^^^^^ This, have people really forgotten what a shambles the Tory manifesto was.It seemed like every day brought either a change or a cancelation , to some part of it.
JagLover said:
Sway said:
Agreed. However, in the last GE there were mantras used by Labour that could have been ripped through with ease - "fully costed manifesto", except the figures that were given were easily shown to be bks, and there were plenty of policies with committed expenditure but zero costings nor revenues to support. I couldn't figure out why they weren't hammering that blatant lie every single day - until it was pointed out to me that at the time, with Labour being seen as such underdogs, it came across as 'nasty' to swing voters.
That won't happen next time...
Why not?ks, and there were plenty of policies with committed expenditure but zero costings nor revenues to support. I couldn't figure out why they weren't hammering that blatant lie every single day - until it was pointed out to me that at the time, with Labour being seen as such underdogs, it came across as 'nasty' to swing voters. That won't happen next time...
Social media will still no doubt be firmly controlled by Labour and the BBC and the like will be what they always have been.
The traditional print media, which provided a more pluralistic media environment, is in rapid decline.
Secondly, there are some moves that seem to be resonating on social media. Rees-Mogg has a decent following, and the comments are always interesting. Widdecombe on celebrity big brother will also help (seen a lot of people commenting about her in a favourable light, who wouldn't have had a clue who she was a month ago).
There is a very vocal element in the youth around Momentum, and they are very loud on social media. There is also a bloody massive (and often completely ignored) percentage of the youth who are pretty practical, can see through the bulls
t, and are a tad further to the right than Corbyn can hope to present - especially if they start deselecting anyone moderate... Momentum pushing the Labour party firmly to the left will alienate as many swinging and undecided voters as it will pull in gullible new ones, not every traditional Labour or swinging voter will automatically follow Corbyn further left.
Either there will be a break-away 'New Labour' backed up by a returning Tony Bliar, or a growth of the Liberals which will pull in a few Conservative voters along with the disenfranchised Labour supporters. There will be a traditional 3 party line-up at the next election unless it happens very soon, an election which the Conservatives will win by a narrow margin. Hypothetically...
Either there will be a break-away 'New Labour' backed up by a returning Tony Bliar, or a growth of the Liberals which will pull in a few Conservative voters along with the disenfranchised Labour supporters. There will be a traditional 3 party line-up at the next election unless it happens very soon, an election which the Conservatives will win by a narrow margin. Hypothetically...
Fittster said:
JagLover said:
Social media will still no doubt be firmly controlled by Labour and the BBC and the like will be what they always have been.
How do Labour and the BBC control social media?(I thought it was done by the Kremlin).
This wont change by appointing more Tech savvy people to run the Conservative party either. Labour has hundreds of thousands of activists who spread its message.
The Surveyor said:
Momentum pushing the Labour party firmly to the left will alienate as many swinging and undecided voters as it will pull in gullible new ones, not every traditional Labour or swinging voter will automatically follow Corbyn further left.
Either there will be a break-away 'New Labour' backed up by a returning Tony Bliar, or a growth of the Liberals which will pull in a few Conservative voters along with the disenfranchised Labour supporters. There will be a traditional 3 party line-up at the next election unless it happens very soon, an election which the Conservatives will win by a narrow margin. Hypothetically...
Who can the Libs every come back? They will forever be seen as the Conservative's poodles.Either there will be a break-away 'New Labour' backed up by a returning Tony Bliar, or a growth of the Liberals which will pull in a few Conservative voters along with the disenfranchised Labour supporters. There will be a traditional 3 party line-up at the next election unless it happens very soon, an election which the Conservatives will win by a narrow margin. Hypothetically...
The Surveyor said:
Momentum pushing the Labour party firmly to the left will alienate as many swinging and undecided voters as it will pull in gullible new ones, not every traditional Labour or swinging voter will automatically follow Corbyn further left.
Since becoming leader Corbyn has increased support from 30% to over 40%. He is winning more support than he is losing. Don't underestimate how solid Labour support is even when the policies and leadership have been utterly hopeless. More then 1 in 4 people will vote Labour every single time, no matter the leader, no matter the policies.
In the 20 General Elections since WW2 Labour have never polled less than 27.6%. They had a comfortable majority in 2005 with 35.2%. They are currently polling around 43%.
captain_cynic said:
Both parties have the same issue, the centrists are trying to keep the extremists in line and are struggling at it. The Tories should be walking all over Corbyn but cant keep their own house in order enough to do it and Corbyn is taking full advantage of it.
A lot of centrist Labour voters would vote Tory if they weren't letting the ultra-conservatives run roughshod over them. Centrists have been the controlling swing voters in recent decades but right now cant find a party worth voting for, which is why we ended up with a hung parliament and DUP getting effective control.
Vice versa, centrist conservatives would be voting Labour if they got rid of Corbyn. As it stands, he has a chance of being elected simply because of the sheer incompetence of the Tories (and I don't like that scenario either).
^ This.A lot of centrist Labour voters would vote Tory if they weren't letting the ultra-conservatives run roughshod over them. Centrists have been the controlling swing voters in recent decades but right now cant find a party worth voting for, which is why we ended up with a hung parliament and DUP getting effective control.
Vice versa, centrist conservatives would be voting Labour if they got rid of Corbyn. As it stands, he has a chance of being elected simply because of the sheer incompetence of the Tories (and I don't like that scenario either).
This is a rare opportunity for a restructuring of our party system. An SDP-like breakaway group of experienced moderate Labour Party members, plus equivalents from the Conservatives (plus at least an accommodation with the Lib Dems) has a chance of gaining critical mass. But it's a huge gamble.
If Labour wanted to press Ctrl+Z repeatedly in one fell swoop they could do a lot worse than dumping Corbyn and electing Chuka Umunna who, unlike JC, engages with issues head-on - and might even unite the party. Then again, Momentum (seemingly populated by pointlessly cheering safe spacers / graduates still in the clasp of student politics) will probably try everything it knows to retain its grip on Labour. The sooner it goes, the better.
The Dangerous Elk said:
Fittster said:
What policies do you regard as Marxist?
Really, try reading anything writen by Corbyn.Public ownership of utilities? Well, that would make most of Western Europe Marxists.
I think you might just be throwing around the word Marxist as a insult rather than as a critique of a particular policy.
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