Migration & Immigration
Discussion
Can we have a serious discussion about this?
[I’m writing this as a middle-aged, middle class white man in a first world country, and I have no desire to migrate.]
It might be disingenuous to start with this point but migration/immigration is only an issue because we have a world with borders and different (for want of a better expression) operating systems.
If I lived in what the US President so succinctly called a s
thole, I would want to move to somewhere with better prospects. And I would guess everyone reading this would be the same.
This is perhaps more true today as the borders do not prevent the flow of information and knowledge from one country to another, just the movement of people. If I were sat in a sthole watching youtubes of what life is like in the US/UK/EU I think I would want to go there rather than remain in the ‘hole
That so many people want to come and live here should be a matter of national pride, not cause for racism and hatred.
In the next half a lifetime this world, with increasing longevity, and massively improved healthcare (forex, look how the rate of infant mortality in Africa has plummeted in the last 30 years), is going to go from very busy to overpopulated. As such the issue of immigration/migration/freedom of movement is not only not going to go away but will become even more of an issue on a global scale.
Should people be forced to remain where they are born? Or should people be free to live where ever they want to?
[I’m writing this as a middle-aged, middle class white man in a first world country, and I have no desire to migrate.]
It might be disingenuous to start with this point but migration/immigration is only an issue because we have a world with borders and different (for want of a better expression) operating systems.
If I lived in what the US President so succinctly called a s
thole, I would want to move to somewhere with better prospects. And I would guess everyone reading this would be the same.This is perhaps more true today as the borders do not prevent the flow of information and knowledge from one country to another, just the movement of people. If I were sat in a s
thole watching youtubes of what life is like in the US/UK/EU I think I would want to go there rather than remain in the ‘holeThat so many people want to come and live here should be a matter of national pride, not cause for racism and hatred.
In the next half a lifetime this world, with increasing longevity, and massively improved healthcare (forex, look how the rate of infant mortality in Africa has plummeted in the last 30 years), is going to go from very busy to overpopulated. As such the issue of immigration/migration/freedom of movement is not only not going to go away but will become even more of an issue on a global scale.
Should people be forced to remain where they are born? Or should people be free to live where ever they want to?
Voldemort said:
Can we have a serious discussion about this?
Not-The-Messiah said:
Can I come and live in your house with a few of my mates?
It saves a lot of time when the first response answers the question for you.Unfortunately you will be unlikely to get a serious discussion here without scaremongering and sensationalism from those who are scared of their own shadows.
mx5nut said:
It saves a lot of time when the first response answers the question for you.
Unfortunately you will be unlikely to get a serious discussion here without scaremongering and sensationalism from those who are scared of their own shadows.
You criticising other people for ‘not wanting to have a sensible discussion’ is priceless!Unfortunately you will be unlikely to get a serious discussion here without scaremongering and sensationalism from those who are scared of their own shadows.
BOR said:
Best of luck with this one, Vollers !
For me, I resent the idea of some stty little xenophobe deciding where I can or can't live and work on this planet.
But you won't get the final answer until the regulars get back from the flat-roof-pub.
No-one has decided that for you. It’s up to the governments of the places that you want to live / work who make that decision. Which seems quite reasonable to me.For me, I resent the idea of some s
tty little xenophobe deciding where I can or can't live and work on this planet.But you won't get the final answer until the regulars get back from the flat-roof-pub.
Voldemort said:
Can we have a serious discussion about this?
I think we all know the answer to that...Voldemort said:
Should people be forced to remain where they are born? Or should people be free to live where ever they want to?
That's what it comes down to.Why do some people have huge issues with people born in Warsaw being able to move to Birmingham, but find it perfectly acceptable for those born in Dublin?
Why is it so much more acceptable to be born in Sydney and move to Birmingham, but not born in Karachi?
Why is somebody who moves from London to Marbella an "ex-pat", but somebody who moves from Madrid to Brighton an "immigrant"...?
From a purely ideological, simplistic point of view, yes it would be great if everyone could settle/make their life wherever they choose. There are however a number of practical issues that would need to be overcome to facilitate this:
Infrastructure needs to be expanded to support the population
If you are not skilled/able/willing to work in a way that means you are a net contributor to society, you then become an additional drain on that society
Other cultures and customs don't necessarily fit with those of the new host country, and not everyone seems prepared to adapt their previous way of life to suit their new home-of-choice
Those are just a few points off the top of my head - I don't think a completely open immigration/migration policy will ever be adopted by any country, but controlled immigration schemes can and do work the world over.
I hope that meets the sensible/grown-up discussion requirements
Infrastructure needs to be expanded to support the population
If you are not skilled/able/willing to work in a way that means you are a net contributor to society, you then become an additional drain on that society
Other cultures and customs don't necessarily fit with those of the new host country, and not everyone seems prepared to adapt their previous way of life to suit their new home-of-choice
Those are just a few points off the top of my head - I don't think a completely open immigration/migration policy will ever be adopted by any country, but controlled immigration schemes can and do work the world over.
I hope that meets the sensible/grown-up discussion requirements
People have always migrated away from war, terror, squallor, poverty and persecution, and toward peace, prosperity and civilisation.
The change, today, as opposed to previous decades, let alone centuries are:
On the other side of the coin, there is no doubt whatsoever that the west - and most definitely the UK - have benefited greatly from many aspects of immigration, even if some negative outcomes have been encountered. Many of the pressures within the UK stem not from the numbers arriving, but in the way they are integrated, but also, even more importantly, from a total lack of planning or action (from successive governments) to invest in infrastructure commensurate with an increased population.
The change, today, as opposed to previous decades, let alone centuries are:
- the numbers of humans - both 'here' and 'there'
- the smallness of the world in terms of travel - it is more accessible than before, cheaper, faster and more prolific
- the smallness of the world in terms of communications - smartphones and the internet mean more people latch onto the benefits of migration to the west
On the other side of the coin, there is no doubt whatsoever that the west - and most definitely the UK - have benefited greatly from many aspects of immigration, even if some negative outcomes have been encountered. Many of the pressures within the UK stem not from the numbers arriving, but in the way they are integrated, but also, even more importantly, from a total lack of planning or action (from successive governments) to invest in infrastructure commensurate with an increased population.
Places are not magically nice places to live and st holes don't have to be st holes. If you live in a st hole and you spent your life making it better, and your children spent their lives making it better until it was after a few generations it was now a nice place - would you expect your progeny to welcome all and sundry to their nice place (risking it becoming less nice) or would it be better to show the nice place as an example of how places can be?
Leaving to find something better is not as impressive as staying and making something better.
t holes don't have to be st holes. If you live in a st hole and you spent your life making it better, and your children spent their lives making it better until it was after a few generations it was now a nice place - would you expect your progeny to welcome all and sundry to their nice place (risking it becoming less nice) or would it be better to show the nice place as an example of how places can be?Leaving to find something better is not as impressive as staying and making something better.
OP - its not just as simple as that as I understand it.
The freedom of the individual in becoming a "world citizen" rather than a citizen of a nation within a boundary has always been a liberal left-wing dream scenario.
The problem with that approach though is that if individuals have freedom of the world, then there can not be boundaries and nations would disappear.
It would then become a tribal fight for resources, land, wealth, without any regulation or controls.
A 'world government' would have to be set up.
If this "world government" set up a similar western style society, with western style laws etc. ... you still end up with wealthy people and poor people.
It would become 'tribal' again.
If there were "world government" laws to prevent 'tribal' action (ie. gathering people to enact your will/protection over others), then there would be no incentive to work or learn in order to get your head above the rest.
Under the liberal left-wing approach it heads towards pure communism, whereby everyone is the same, treated equally, not allowed to become more than the person next to you etc.
Which therefore must mean everyone is given the same resources, same salary (no matter what job they are given).....etc. etc.
Not sure its a world I'd like to live in.
The world we have to day is fortunate for some and bleak for others. This is how it has been for 1000's of years. There will always be those with wealth and those with poverty. This factor drives people to want to do better in their lives.
It exists within border as much as it does globally.
Its also a huge factor in how the human race and societies around the world have progressed and developed - so that many areas in the world today are no longer in absolute poverty and are also able to get medial aid etc.
The freedom of the individual in becoming a "world citizen" rather than a citizen of a nation within a boundary has always been a liberal left-wing dream scenario.
The problem with that approach though is that if individuals have freedom of the world, then there can not be boundaries and nations would disappear.
It would then become a tribal fight for resources, land, wealth, without any regulation or controls.
A 'world government' would have to be set up.
If this "world government" set up a similar western style society, with western style laws etc. ... you still end up with wealthy people and poor people.
It would become 'tribal' again.
If there were "world government" laws to prevent 'tribal' action (ie. gathering people to enact your will/protection over others), then there would be no incentive to work or learn in order to get your head above the rest.
Under the liberal left-wing approach it heads towards pure communism, whereby everyone is the same, treated equally, not allowed to become more than the person next to you etc.
Which therefore must mean everyone is given the same resources, same salary (no matter what job they are given).....etc. etc.
Not sure its a world I'd like to live in.
The world we have to day is fortunate for some and bleak for others. This is how it has been for 1000's of years. There will always be those with wealth and those with poverty. This factor drives people to want to do better in their lives.
It exists within border as much as it does globally.
Its also a huge factor in how the human race and societies around the world have progressed and developed - so that many areas in the world today are no longer in absolute poverty and are also able to get medial aid etc.
BOR said:
Best of luck with this one, Vollers !
For me, I resent the idea of some stty little xenophobe deciding where I can or can't live and work on this planet.
But you won't get the final answer until the regulars get back from the flat-roof-pub.
Nothing to do with xenophobia, it just doesn't work as countries are not equal.For me, I resent the idea of some s
tty little xenophobe deciding where I can or can't live and work on this planet.But you won't get the final answer until the regulars get back from the flat-roof-pub.
Certain towns in Poland are deserted apart from the elderly generation for example.
Its five year old thinking, tralala,skippety through fields of buttercups, everyone lives peacefully crap,which to anyone with an ounce of sense can see just won't/can't work.
i would personally like to see a genuine global effort to improve the lot of the underdeveloped countries so there is less need for mass migration . having lived and worked abroad i never felt i was being hindered by small minded xenophobes when i had to fill in paperwork and meet criteria that made me eligible to do so.
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