Migration & Immigration
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
Digga said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It's good to see that conflation between asylum and economic migration is as rife as ever.
Shades of grey though isn't it? A lot of the 'economic' migrants are coming from places that, if we're honest, few of us would feel safe going on holiday.What visas are they coming in on?
Jinx said:
Places are not magically nice places to live and s
t holes don't have to be st holes. If you live in a st hole and you spent your life making it better, and your children spent their lives making it better until it was after a few generations it was now a nice place - would you expect your progeny to welcome all and sundry to their nice place (risking it becoming less nice) or would it be better to show the nice place as an example of how places can be?
Leaving to find something better is not as impressive as staying and making something better.
Out of interest do you still live in the same town/street you were born in?t holes don't have to be st holes. If you live in a st hole and you spent your life making it better, and your children spent their lives making it better until it was after a few generations it was now a nice place - would you expect your progeny to welcome all and sundry to their nice place (risking it becoming less nice) or would it be better to show the nice place as an example of how places can be?Leaving to find something better is not as impressive as staying and making something better.
Atomic12C said:
There is of course an underlying issue that no government is tackling.
Unsustainable global population increase.
The thought of having to tackle an issue that brings up the topic of "right of life" etc. is a hugely controversial one.
But at some point somebody will have to take a step in that direction.
Various trends of future population numbers show a varied path of possibilities. From leveling off, to small declines..... but I think the majority show it to increase to levels that will mean a huge global population will have to live in poverty - with a lack of adequate distribution of global resources (food, power etc), whilst a small few will no doubt enjoy a life of luxury.
All the ones I've seen show a leveling off and decline. That's the central scenario that the MoD are working to, for example, on a 40ish year horizon. Pop growth across developing economies in Asia had already reduced enormously, for example. The high growth comes when a "sUnsustainable global population increase.
The thought of having to tackle an issue that brings up the topic of "right of life" etc. is a hugely controversial one.
But at some point somebody will have to take a step in that direction.
Various trends of future population numbers show a varied path of possibilities. From leveling off, to small declines..... but I think the majority show it to increase to levels that will mean a huge global population will have to live in poverty - with a lack of adequate distribution of global resources (food, power etc), whilst a small few will no doubt enjoy a life of luxury.
thole" (c)DJT starts to get improved healthcare, but before the rest of its economy and social norms catch up. The evidence suggests that the catching up happens rather quickly. The only place that currently has high pop growth is sub-Saharan Africa and the total population there isn't that great to start with so even if it increases rapidly it isn't going to have a massive global impact.rscott said:
del mar said:
Funkycoldribena said:
Maybe benefit for us but what about them?
No one seems to care about the countries we're draining from.
I care, I care deeply that is why I would stop all immigration from the third world.....No one seems to care about the countries we're draining from.
Being Africa and big chunks or Asia and the Middle East, but I fully appreciate that counties develop and can move.
Digga said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It's good to see that conflation between asylum and economic migration is as rife as ever.
Shades of grey though isn't it? A lot of the 'economic' migrants are coming from places that, if we're honest, few of us would feel safe going on holiday. Sure, there are official asylum cases too, but then there is also the real and sensible consideration of pure, raw numbers, in terms of our population growth and sustainability.As we have touched on before we don't have to take them.
Digga said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Digga said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It's good to see that conflation between asylum and economic migration is as rife as ever.
Shades of grey though isn't it? A lot of the 'economic' migrants are coming from places that, if we're honest, few of us would feel safe going on holiday.What visas are they coming in on?
FCO have no issue with the vast majority of the country...
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/egypt
Pakistan isn't really a tourist destination.
Digga said:
What does it matter what visas they enter on? They're here.
So you say. But do you not think it fairly relevant to this debate to understand how "they" are here...? I mean, the UK government has 100% control over visa issues for everybody who's a non-EU national, and always has had - so this is 100% in the UK government's power... Just point to which visa categories you think there's an issue with.TooMany2cvs said:
Digga said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Digga said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It's good to see that conflation between asylum and economic migration is as rife as ever.
Shades of grey though isn't it? A lot of the 'economic' migrants are coming from places that, if we're honest, few of us would feel safe going on holiday.What visas are they coming in on?
FCO have no issue with the vast majority of the country...
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/egypt
Pakistan isn't really a tourist destination.
Digga said:
What does it matter what visas they enter on? They're here.
So you say. But do you not think it fairly relevant to this debate to understand how "they" are here...? I mean, the UK government has 100% control over visa issues for everybody who's a non-EU national, and always has had - so this is 100% in the UK government's power... Just point to which visa categories you think there's an issue with.Look at the uproar when Trump described Africa in the same terms as the vast majority of us think. I doubt many of his detractors would want to live there.
mx5nut said:
Suggests the average Swede on the street doesn't share the views of your friends. Will of the people etc.
The Swedish government is a minority government, so 
Rapes and sexual assaults are a problem, now there is a serial gang rape gang on the loose in Malmö.
Handgrenade found in broad daylight on the road in a suburb of Stockholm.
The gone week has seen four dead in gang shootings, few more knife deaths.
Police stations are bombed, police cars are bombed, homes of police officers are shot up.
2017 there was a shooting a day, no other country has nearly as many handgrenade blasts as Sweden.
Today, the so called leader of the country admitted that the army may have to be called in to fight gang crime.
These are all problems caused by too much immigration and poor integration. The first generation immigrants are generally not the ones who cause the problems, the second and third generations are.
Still at least now the cold and snow is coming so it's pretty quiet at the moment.
TooMany2cvs said:
del mar said:
As we have touched on before we don't have to take them.
We DO have to take refugees, under various UN treaties.If we don't other countries might think poorly of us and our world standing may suffer but there is no punishment / sanction.
del mar said:
There is a difference from going to a self contained diving resort with armed guards where you don't leave the resort and experience none of the country or its problems, and saying the British would be happy to visit and live in Egypt.
If I were going to Egypt, and I'd be VERY happy to do so tomorrow, you wouldn't catch me anywhere near one of those godawful could-be-anywhere holiday camps.I suspect you'd put Tunisia into the same basket. I was there exactly six years ago - we arrived on the car ferry from Sicily on the first anniversary of the president doing a runner during the Arab Spring, a couple of months after Gadaffi's overthrow. We spent two months driving around the country, and never had anything but a really friendly welcome. The single worst place we went to? We popped to Port el Kantaoui to see if it was as bad as we thought it would be...
(Oh, and shortly after getting the ferry back from Tunisia to Sicily, we got the ferry to Albania, and spent the thick end of a month there, too...)
"the FCO have no problem with the vast majority of the country"
Seems like an understatement?
Red - Advise against all travel
Orange - Advise against all but essential travel
Green - see our advice on travel
Which then says
The FCO advise against all but essential travel to:
the Governorate of South Sinai, with the exception of the area within the Sharm el Sheikh perimeter barrier, which includes the airport and the areas of Sharm el Maya, Hadaba, Naama Bay, Sharks Bay and Nabq; however, we advise against all but essential travel by air to or from Sharm el Sheikh;
So you're okay inside the perimeter... Just don't fly there!
Seems like an understatement?
Red - Advise against all travel
Orange - Advise against all but essential travel
Green - see our advice on travel
Which then says
The FCO advise against all but essential travel to:
the Governorate of South Sinai, with the exception of the area within the Sharm el Sheikh perimeter barrier, which includes the airport and the areas of Sharm el Maya, Hadaba, Naama Bay, Sharks Bay and Nabq; however, we advise against all but essential travel by air to or from Sharm el Sheikh;
So you're okay inside the perimeter... Just don't fly there!
Edited by Oakey on Wednesday 17th January 17:24
Digga said:
The only sub-humans are those whose aim in life is to cause harm to others.
As for sorting wheat from chaff in immigration, it's close enough to impossible as to not be worth bothering with. The Borders Agency is barely capable of carrying out it's present, narrow remit.
You could say income and or wealth is a factor worth monitoring, but there are plenty of wealthy foreign national in the UK who contribute little other than to inflate asset (hosing mostly) prices, and in many regards contribute as little as those arriving with nothing, no intention of learning English and integrating. There's no hard or fast way of checking how successful in immigrant is going to be in terms of both their own experience and their interface and contribution to wider society. Present stipulations for (legal) immigrants seem fair enough.
There may be no way for an individual immigrant but there are a number of studies on groups.As for sorting wheat from chaff in immigration, it's close enough to impossible as to not be worth bothering with. The Borders Agency is barely capable of carrying out it's present, narrow remit.
You could say income and or wealth is a factor worth monitoring, but there are plenty of wealthy foreign national in the UK who contribute little other than to inflate asset (hosing mostly) prices, and in many regards contribute as little as those arriving with nothing, no intention of learning English and integrating. There's no hard or fast way of checking how successful in immigrant is going to be in terms of both their own experience and their interface and contribution to wider society. Present stipulations for (legal) immigrants seem fair enough.
A US study found that an immigrant with below High school education would cost the tax payer a net $115K over their lifetime (benefits received and services consumed less tax paid).
There is then a change by education level to those with masters degrees being very large net contributors.
https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21721...
This effect then continues in the next generation as children of low skilled migrants are also, on average, a net cost.
del mar said:
Digga said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It's good to see that conflation between asylum and economic migration is as rife as ever.
Shades of grey though isn't it? A lot of the 'economic' migrants are coming from places that, if we're honest, few of us would feel safe going on holiday. Sure, there are official asylum cases too, but then there is also the real and sensible consideration of pure, raw numbers, in terms of our population growth and sustainability.As we have touched on before we don't have to take them.
Edited by mx5nut on Wednesday 17th January 18:38
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