Migration & Immigration
Discussion
1. The Great Migration is *a problem today in almost every single country on Earth*. It is a global challenge. From Vietnam (3rd world) to Hungary (2nd world) to the US (1st world), governments and citizens are struggling with the problem of resources, language and culture. It is NOT just a UK issue for teeth-sucking Lefties or jackboot Righties.
2. There is NOT a bottomless pit of cash or a magic money tree or infinite land. The UK (or any other country on the planet) cannot support every person with a begging bowl or plane ticket. It is basic, real-world economics.
3. The *real underlying question* is not "why won't British and European and American racists let in more people from abroad and give them free cash", but "why are those countries' *governments* so bad that people want to flee them in their millions in the first place". Contrast Hong Kong, liberated from monstrous Britain in 1997 and now one of the richest countries on Earth, with Jamaica, liberated from monstrous Britain in 1962 and now one of the poorest countries on Earth. The psuedo-intellectual Left and shouty Right need to focus their anger on the sh*thole governments -- they're the real baddies here. People who can't even organize decent healthcare, education, law, order and infrastructure for their own citizens.
2. There is NOT a bottomless pit of cash or a magic money tree or infinite land. The UK (or any other country on the planet) cannot support every person with a begging bowl or plane ticket. It is basic, real-world economics.
3. The *real underlying question* is not "why won't British and European and American racists let in more people from abroad and give them free cash", but "why are those countries' *governments* so bad that people want to flee them in their millions in the first place". Contrast Hong Kong, liberated from monstrous Britain in 1997 and now one of the richest countries on Earth, with Jamaica, liberated from monstrous Britain in 1962 and now one of the poorest countries on Earth. The psuedo-intellectual Left and shouty Right need to focus their anger on the sh*thole governments -- they're the real baddies here. People who can't even organize decent healthcare, education, law, order and infrastructure for their own citizens.
Camoradi said:
sidicks said:
You criticising other people for ‘not wanting to have a sensible discussion’ is priceless!
+1 
wc98 said:
i would personally like to see a genuine global effort to improve the lot of the underdeveloped countries so there is less need for mass migration . having lived and worked abroad i never felt i was being hindered by small minded xenophobes when i had to fill in paperwork and meet criteria that made me eligible to do so.
Globalisation HAS done that for Millions and Millions of the world poor = ChinaI add, at massive cost to the Western countries in money and social division
Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Wednesday 17th January 12:59
Yipper speaking sense? Thats gotta be a 1st.
Anyway, as another poster said also, countries need to be made into places where people want to live. That takes generations of improvement and needs to be done by its own citizens. The 1st World wasn't always a 1st World, it was also once a 'hole too.
Eeryone shipping off to the promised lands just f
ks the promised lands up.
Anyway, as another poster said also, countries need to be made into places where people want to live. That takes generations of improvement and needs to be done by its own citizens. The 1st World wasn't always a 1st World, it was also once a 'hole too.
Eeryone shipping off to the promised lands just f
ks the promised lands up.bigkeeko said:
I'm scum and a disgrace but I work and have something to offer the system unlike 90% plus of rapefugees. If anyone hasn't caught on it is a obvious attempt to get the boot from this liberal, apologist mangina of a forum. So Mods, get on it.
You could always just leave of your own accord, so why don't you?Ahbefive said:
Eeryone shipping off to the promised lands just fks the promised lands up.
It's telling that it's not uncommon to hear recent immigrants saying "the UK is full". There's an element of 'pull the ladder up Jack', but there's also a recognition that, if anyone and anyone from 'home' comes to the UK, it will no longer be the same place.ks the promised lands up.I'd certainly agree that, given the geometric progression of third world population, fixing the third world is a definite priority.
There is of course an underlying issue that no government is tackling.
Unsustainable global population increase.
The thought of having to tackle an issue that brings up the topic of "right of life" etc. is a hugely controversial one.
But at some point somebody will have to take a step in that direction.
Various trends of future population numbers show a varied path of possibilities. From leveling off, to small declines..... but I think the majority show it to increase to levels that will mean a huge global population will have to live in poverty - with a lack of adequate distribution of global resources (food, power etc), whilst a small few will no doubt enjoy a life of luxury.
Unsustainable global population increase.
The thought of having to tackle an issue that brings up the topic of "right of life" etc. is a hugely controversial one.
But at some point somebody will have to take a step in that direction.
Various trends of future population numbers show a varied path of possibilities. From leveling off, to small declines..... but I think the majority show it to increase to levels that will mean a huge global population will have to live in poverty - with a lack of adequate distribution of global resources (food, power etc), whilst a small few will no doubt enjoy a life of luxury.
Two points
Domestically, the problem is not immigration itself, but 'integration'. This is an issue that goes back many hundreds of years. When groups of people from another country arrive in a new land, understandably, they wish to cluster together but this denies them the opportunity to properly integrate into the society that they choose as home. This then creates mistrust amongst the indigenous population, then resentment as you end up with areas of an entirely different culture, appearance and whose occupants' values do not necessarily align with the cultural norm. Brits do this as well. In Spain and elsewhere, there are entire villages occupied entirely by British ex-pats. It's wrong here and its wrong there. One cannot hope to have respect for the cultures and norms of a country if there is no incentive to properly integrate.
Secondly, a great many of the more 'vocal' anti-immigration brigade tends also to be the most critical of Foreign Aid; yet Foreign Aid's single driving purpose is to alleviate poverty and stimulate economic stability in the regions it is dispensed. This has the consequence of bringing stability and opportunities to countries and the populations of these countries have less inclination to seek a better life elsewhere.
It's problem but one that will not be solved by pulling up the draw bridge and pining a 'No Blacks' sign to the Dover cliff face.
Domestically, the problem is not immigration itself, but 'integration'. This is an issue that goes back many hundreds of years. When groups of people from another country arrive in a new land, understandably, they wish to cluster together but this denies them the opportunity to properly integrate into the society that they choose as home. This then creates mistrust amongst the indigenous population, then resentment as you end up with areas of an entirely different culture, appearance and whose occupants' values do not necessarily align with the cultural norm. Brits do this as well. In Spain and elsewhere, there are entire villages occupied entirely by British ex-pats. It's wrong here and its wrong there. One cannot hope to have respect for the cultures and norms of a country if there is no incentive to properly integrate.
Secondly, a great many of the more 'vocal' anti-immigration brigade tends also to be the most critical of Foreign Aid; yet Foreign Aid's single driving purpose is to alleviate poverty and stimulate economic stability in the regions it is dispensed. This has the consequence of bringing stability and opportunities to countries and the populations of these countries have less inclination to seek a better life elsewhere.
It's problem but one that will not be solved by pulling up the draw bridge and pining a 'No Blacks' sign to the Dover cliff face.
Edited by StevieBee on Wednesday 17th January 13:21
StevieBee said:
Secondly, a great many of the more 'vocal' anti-immigration brigade tends also to be the most critical of Foreign Aid; yet Foreign Aid's single driving purpose is to alleviate poverty and stimulate economic stability in the regions it is dispensed. This has the consequence of bringing stability and opportunities to countries and the populations of these countries have less inclination to seek a better life elsewhere.
Yes, but we could probably knock the £100 Million a year to India on the head, they have enough money to run a space program, so can probably look after their own poor.daddy cool said:
StevieBee said:
Secondly, a great many of the more 'vocal' anti-immigration brigade tends also to be the most critical of Foreign Aid; yet Foreign Aid's single driving purpose is to alleviate poverty and stimulate economic stability in the regions it is dispensed. This has the consequence of bringing stability and opportunities to countries and the populations of these countries have less inclination to seek a better life elsewhere.
Yes, but we could probably knock the £100 Million a year to India on the head, they have enough money to run a space program, so can probably look after their own poor.Seems to me that many of the 'sthole countries' have always had much higher birthrates than us westerners, only now, life expectancy has shot up, due to advances in clean water supplies, technology, healthcare, cash etc. However, educating the 'stholers' into having less children doesn't seem to be occurring; combined with many 'stholes' being governed by corrupt dictators, &/or religion getting in the way, we have the perfect storm for the natives wishing to escape to the west.
Of course, there is not the space or resources to absorb everyone, so choices need to be made.
As for the references in this thread to 'vermin' & 'rapefugees': what a pathetic thing to write.
thole countries' have always had much higher birthrates than us westerners, only now, life expectancy has shot up, due to advances in clean water supplies, technology, healthcare, cash etc. However, educating the 'stholers' into having less children doesn't seem to be occurring; combined with many 'stholes' being governed by corrupt dictators, &/or religion getting in the way, we have the perfect storm for the natives wishing to escape to the west.Of course, there is not the space or resources to absorb everyone, so choices need to be made.
As for the references in this thread to 'vermin' & 'rapefugees': what a pathetic thing to write.
bigkeeko said:
I'm scum and a disgrace but I work and have something to offer the system unlike 90% plus of rapefugees. If anyone hasn't caught on it is a obvious attempt to get the boot from this liberal, apologist mangina of a forum. So Mods, get on it.
You're a bit of a stain aren't you? I've met my fair share of refugees and would certainly welcome another hundred if they provide a barrier between me and the sort of rhetoric you insist on spouting.
StevieBee said:
Two points
Domestically, the problem is not immigration itself, but 'integration'. This is an issue that goes back many hundreds of years. When groups of people from another country arrive in a new land, understandably, they wish to cluster together but this denies them the opportunity to properly integrate into the society that they choose as home. This then creates mistrust amongst the indigenous population, then resentment as you end up with areas of an entirely different culture, appearance and whose occupants' values do not necessarily align with the cultural norm. Brits do this as well. In Spain and elsewhere, there are entire villages occupied entirely by British ex-pats. It's wrong here and its wrong there. One cannot hope to have respect for the cultures and norms of a country if there is no incentive to properly integrate.
Secondly, a great many of the more 'vocal' anti-immigration brigade tends also to be the most critical of Foreign Aid; yet Foreign Aid's single driving purpose is to alleviate poverty and stimulate economic stability in the regions it is dispensed. This has the consequence of bringing stability and opportunities to countries and the populations of these countries have less inclination to seek a better life elsewhere.
It's problem but one that will not be solved by pulling up the draw bridge and pining a 'No Blacks' sign to the Dover cliff face.
Steve, I partially agree/disagree with those points.Domestically, the problem is not immigration itself, but 'integration'. This is an issue that goes back many hundreds of years. When groups of people from another country arrive in a new land, understandably, they wish to cluster together but this denies them the opportunity to properly integrate into the society that they choose as home. This then creates mistrust amongst the indigenous population, then resentment as you end up with areas of an entirely different culture, appearance and whose occupants' values do not necessarily align with the cultural norm. Brits do this as well. In Spain and elsewhere, there are entire villages occupied entirely by British ex-pats. It's wrong here and its wrong there. One cannot hope to have respect for the cultures and norms of a country if there is no incentive to properly integrate.
Secondly, a great many of the more 'vocal' anti-immigration brigade tends also to be the most critical of Foreign Aid; yet Foreign Aid's single driving purpose is to alleviate poverty and stimulate economic stability in the regions it is dispensed. This has the consequence of bringing stability and opportunities to countries and the populations of these countries have less inclination to seek a better life elsewhere.
It's problem but one that will not be solved by pulling up the draw bridge and pining a 'No Blacks' sign to the Dover cliff face.
Edited by StevieBee on Wednesday 17th January 13:21
The main issue is numbers as this is what impacts on land space, resources, congestion, competition etc. etc.
This can also be the same problem for simple sheer numbers within the indigenous population, which in turn drives a desire for emigration, in order to escape those numbers and find a place where resources are spread such that one gains a larger slice of the pie.
But yes, also a large part of that is 'integration' (or lack of).
As for foreign aid, it was sold to the public as what you describe, but in fact it turns out to also contain a large portion of foreign bribes.
This can work in the favour of the UK taxpayer, or not.
But I would say that our western intervention in the middle-east, more to oust leaders we don't like rather than the premise of protecting the people from those regimes, has created more problems than it has solved.
So foreign aid/bribes and global politics seem to work against each other in many cases.
Trade is a large component of allowing poverty stricken areas to climb out of the 'hole'. I think there should be more 'fair trade' done.
Allowing similar products (that pass quality controls) made anywhere in the world to be on sale in any country in the world.
I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but it seems that many poverty stricken places are not able to produce because they know they are not likely to be able to sell.
Bigkeeko may have been a little "rough and ready" with his terminology, but he isn't wrong.
Third world migration brings no benefits to the UK at all.
Financially they are a drain
Culturally some of their old ways cause us problems
Socially they add nothing.
Some countries will contribute more than others, but that is not an area we can discuss.
There are a whole load of benefits to the immigrant, it is a very one way street.
There is no given right for those in the 3rd world to come and live here, and we are not obliged to take them, although we do.
At the last census the 25% of Londoners were born outside the EU, that was hailed as great news by all our politicians.
But is there an upper cap as to what percentage our politicians want ? If 25% is great is 50% better ?
Third world migration brings no benefits to the UK at all.
Financially they are a drain
Culturally some of their old ways cause us problems
Socially they add nothing.
Some countries will contribute more than others, but that is not an area we can discuss.
There are a whole load of benefits to the immigrant, it is a very one way street.
There is no given right for those in the 3rd world to come and live here, and we are not obliged to take them, although we do.
At the last census the 25% of Londoners were born outside the EU, that was hailed as great news by all our politicians.
But is there an upper cap as to what percentage our politicians want ? If 25% is great is 50% better ?
del mar said:
Bigkeeko may have been a little "rough and ready" with his terminology, but he isn't wrong.
Third world migration brings no benefits to the UK at all.
Financially they are a drain
Culturally some of their old ways cause us problems
Socially they add nothing.
No, as well as being offensive, he is still wrong, as are you.Third world migration brings no benefits to the UK at all.
Financially they are a drain
Culturally some of their old ways cause us problems
Socially they add nothing.
There are definitely benefits from some migration and without question some people add value to this country, financial or otherwise.
bigkeeko said:
I'm scum and a disgrace but I work and have something to offer the system unlike 90% plus of rapefugees. If anyone hasn't caught on it is a obvious attempt to get the boot from this liberal, apologist mangina of a forum. So Mods, get on it.
Oh, I'm sure they will "get on it"...<waves goodbye>
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff