Want to build extension close to neighbour's tree
Discussion
I thought I'd turn to the wisdom of the crowd for some building advice in relation to building near trees.
I have a planning application of an extension on the back of my small terrace. However, following a site visit the council tree officer is recommending a refusal because the building would be too close to a neighbour's tree (which doesn't have a tree protection order). Does anyone have advice about the possibility of building close to a tree without damaging the roots? In this case the 30-40ft silver birch would be about three feet away from where I would want an external wall? I am wondering whether anyone has experience of getting planning approval when building very close to trees by using non-traditional foundations, perhaps screw piling and some form of root protection.
My designer is suggests getting in an arboricultural technician to provide a tree report, which would accompany the planning application on its final stages to decision at the end of the month. However, I'm not keen to lay out £700 for a report which I know is simply going to tell me that I need to protect the roots. I've already funded the design work, so am at risk of digging a money pit only to be told the whole thing is a non-starter.
Ideally, I'd love to hear if anyone has actually successfully secured an approval for building very close to a tree, and what methods you used to win over the council. Unfortunately, I can't shift the location of the planned extension, so it's either this or nothing.
Thanks for giving this your consideration.
I have a planning application of an extension on the back of my small terrace. However, following a site visit the council tree officer is recommending a refusal because the building would be too close to a neighbour's tree (which doesn't have a tree protection order). Does anyone have advice about the possibility of building close to a tree without damaging the roots? In this case the 30-40ft silver birch would be about three feet away from where I would want an external wall? I am wondering whether anyone has experience of getting planning approval when building very close to trees by using non-traditional foundations, perhaps screw piling and some form of root protection.
My designer is suggests getting in an arboricultural technician to provide a tree report, which would accompany the planning application on its final stages to decision at the end of the month. However, I'm not keen to lay out £700 for a report which I know is simply going to tell me that I need to protect the roots. I've already funded the design work, so am at risk of digging a money pit only to be told the whole thing is a non-starter.
Ideally, I'd love to hear if anyone has actually successfully secured an approval for building very close to a tree, and what methods you used to win over the council. Unfortunately, I can't shift the location of the planned extension, so it's either this or nothing.
Thanks for giving this your consideration.
As above: agree compensation with your neighbour for removal of the tree (or get them to write a letter saying that they do not object to your extension and accept the possibility of damage/death of the tree as a result).
Otherwise: Listen to your designer.
It is possible to destroy (as a very rough rule of thumb, depending on lots of factors like the species/age/size of tree, ground conditions, etc.) about 25% of the root plate of a tree without killing it. The Arboricultural Consultant should be able to assess the root protection area of the tree and, in conjunction with an engineer, come up with a foundation solution that will work with a reasonable likelihood that the tree will survive.
It will cost you extra money, unfortunately - both in consultants fees and for the foundations - but that's life... you don't have a god-given right to build an extension that damages your neighbour's property, so you need to accomodate the solution at your expense.
Otherwise: Listen to your designer.
It is possible to destroy (as a very rough rule of thumb, depending on lots of factors like the species/age/size of tree, ground conditions, etc.) about 25% of the root plate of a tree without killing it. The Arboricultural Consultant should be able to assess the root protection area of the tree and, in conjunction with an engineer, come up with a foundation solution that will work with a reasonable likelihood that the tree will survive.
It will cost you extra money, unfortunately - both in consultants fees and for the foundations - but that's life... you don't have a god-given right to build an extension that damages your neighbour's property, so you need to accomodate the solution at your expense.
Mandat said:
Have you spoken with your neighbour to find out whether they would agree for the tree to be removed, subject to suitable compensation for them?
This ^^^I asked my neighbor if I could rip her bush out
and build right up to Her boundary (semi detatched). She's a lovely old woman and we get on great. She and her daughter had no objection at all and said "just do it".As a surprise and a thank you we laid her a stone slab patio and fixed a new wall hung washing line that folds away into a neat box.
The look on her face when she came home from a weekend away was priceless.
Why is the tree/planning officer of the opinion that this tree is so important and warranting refusal? Is it an important landscape feature? I copied and pasted the below. The planning officer should be considering this.
Common law allows you to prune trees that are not protected by a Tree Preservation Order or are in a Conservation Area and the roots growing under your land up to your boundary without the consent of the owner, but you must not trespass on to your neighbour's land to do this. In addition you must offer to return the wood and any fruit attached or which has fallen on to your land.
You do have a duty of care for the tree and may be liable for damages if any work you do, or ask others to do for you, causes the tree to die or become dangerous.
Common law allows you to prune trees that are not protected by a Tree Preservation Order or are in a Conservation Area and the roots growing under your land up to your boundary without the consent of the owner, but you must not trespass on to your neighbour's land to do this. In addition you must offer to return the wood and any fruit attached or which has fallen on to your land.
You do have a duty of care for the tree and may be liable for damages if any work you do, or ask others to do for you, causes the tree to die or become dangerous.
I was in a similar situation a few years ago, but the shoe was on the other foot.
Next door wanted to build a garage, but we a tree in our back garden that was right next to (and slightly( overlapped the boundary.
I came home from work one day to find the tree gone and a pile of sawdust over our back lawn. The neighbour never even mentioned that he was thinking of building a garage. He seemed to think it was perfectly reasonable cutting a tree down in my back garden. He needed to you see. Otherwise it would have been difficult getting his garage built.
Next door wanted to build a garage, but we a tree in our back garden that was right next to (and slightly( overlapped the boundary.
I came home from work one day to find the tree gone and a pile of sawdust over our back lawn. The neighbour never even mentioned that he was thinking of building a garage. He seemed to think it was perfectly reasonable cutting a tree down in my back garden. He needed to you see. Otherwise it would have been difficult getting his garage built.
roadie said:
You do have a duty of care for the tree and may be liable for damages if any work you do, or ask others to do for you, causes the tree to die or become dangerous.
^^^ This bit.And the Planners arguably have a specific duty under Planning legislation to consider the amenity impacts of development.
In this instance, they can discharge this duty by asking the applicant to provide sufficient information to demonstrate that the work can be done without harming the tree, whereon they will (or should) impose a Condition upon the approval to say that the work has to be done in accordance with the details provided.
The alternative is to convince the Planners that the tree lacks sufficient amenity value to anyone to be worth retaining - but to do that (even if it is deemed to lack wider landscape value, beyond the garden it occupies) you're going to need the written acknowledgement of the tree's owner that they're happy to see it gone.
Equus said:
justinio said:
He seemed to think it was perfectly reasonable cutting a tree down in my back garden.
I trust that you sued the ass off him, and replaced the tree with one of similar stature and species, at his expense? 
That is the real world out there, not the broad shouldered, Krav Maga expert PH world. He probably started a thread here about it though.
firstly there is statutory duty to protect trees in england in planning
secondly, for one tree, i'd be interested to know why it costs £700 having just written the very same for less than half - must be london based.
the report needs to be in accordance with BS5837 - 2012.
my advice, if not TPOd or in a Conservation Area, cut the roots off at the boundary (as is your legal right) then the issue goes away as there aren't any to damage by development therefore no calculation of the RPA is required, no fannying about with special foundations etc cause your building is in the RPA
secondly, for one tree, i'd be interested to know why it costs £700 having just written the very same for less than half - must be london based.
the report needs to be in accordance with BS5837 - 2012.
my advice, if not TPOd or in a Conservation Area, cut the roots off at the boundary (as is your legal right) then the issue goes away as there aren't any to damage by development therefore no calculation of the RPA is required, no fannying about with special foundations etc cause your building is in the RPA
terry tibbs said:
there is statutory duty to protect trees in england in planning
There is a statutory duty to consider the protection of trees, under UK Planning legislation. That's not quite the same thing.terry tibbs said:
...cut the roots off at the boundary (as is your legal right) then the issue goes away...
No it doesn't, because the Planner will still (potentially) refuse the application.Also, if the tree survives (or even if it doesn't on highly shrinkable soils), Building Control will want the foundation design to address the proximity of the tree, regardless of its roots having been severed.
Edited by Equus on Thursday 18th January 18:28
King Herald said:
Of course not, he just smiled at the neighbour and told him “no problem”. That is the real world out there, not the broad shouldered, Krav Maga expert PH world.
He probably started a thread here about it though.
No PH threads, frozen sausages, or krav maga was involved. That is the real world out there, not the broad shouldered, Krav Maga expert PH world. He probably started a thread here about it though.
Not much I could have done to be honest. The tree was gone. I suppose I could have spent some of the PH equivalent of petty cash and sued him, but lifes too short. And we sold the house a few months later.
Mandat said:
Have you spoken with your neighbour to find out whether they would agree for the tree to be removed, subject to suitable compensation for them?
Good suggestion. However, the tree is about 40 ft high, the only tree in their garden and quite a nice feature. I'm pretty sure that even if they agreed it would cost a few thousand both to remove the tree and to compensate them for lost property value which, to be fair, it would probably cause.Equus said:
As above: agree compensation with your neighbour for removal of the tree (or get them to write a letter saying that they do not object to your extension and accept the possibility of damage/death of the tree as a result).
Otherwise: Listen to your designer.
It is possible to destroy (as a very rough rule of thumb, depending on lots of factors like the species/age/size of tree, ground conditions, etc.) about 25% of the root plate of a tree without killing it. The Arboricultural Consultant should be able to assess the root protection area of the tree and, in conjunction with an engineer, come up with a foundation solution that will work with a reasonable likelihood that the tree will survive.
It will cost you extra money, unfortunately - both in consultants fees and for the foundations - but that's life... you don't have a god-given right to build an extension that damages your neighbour's property, so you need to accomodate the solution at your expense.
Thanks, that's good advice. Being the neighbour's only tree its unlikely he'll want it chopped down or risk it falling down if he gives approval to my building works. Compensation would also likely prove pricey as it would no doubt reduce the value of his property. The tree is a nice feature. I guess I'd just have to get the gumption up to go and ask him. Otherwise: Listen to your designer.
It is possible to destroy (as a very rough rule of thumb, depending on lots of factors like the species/age/size of tree, ground conditions, etc.) about 25% of the root plate of a tree without killing it. The Arboricultural Consultant should be able to assess the root protection area of the tree and, in conjunction with an engineer, come up with a foundation solution that will work with a reasonable likelihood that the tree will survive.
It will cost you extra money, unfortunately - both in consultants fees and for the foundations - but that's life... you don't have a god-given right to build an extension that damages your neighbour's property, so you need to accomodate the solution at your expense.
With a slight alteration to the plans, I could potentially go down the "permitted development" route and abandon the planning application. Under PD regulations a 3 metre extension could be built without the council being able to prevent. However, since I need to extend 4m I am required to consult the neighbours, who can object. I wonder 1) if the council can still prevent the build on the grounds of this tree being too close and 2) if building regulations can prevent. The annoying thing is that since I went the planning application route there is now a tree officer's report on file.
The ironic thing is that if I extended 3 metres I would still be very close to the tree but in this situation I don't believe the council could prevent the building works.
Of course, whatever the outcome I'd be careful to protect the tree, using piling, as I wouldn't want to damage it for both aesthetic... and legal reasons.
The ironic thing is that if I extended 3 metres I would still be very close to the tree but in this situation I don't believe the council could prevent the building works.
Of course, whatever the outcome I'd be careful to protect the tree, using piling, as I wouldn't want to damage it for both aesthetic... and legal reasons.
I think you're all needlessly worrying about the tree, its the OP's proposed extension which needs your love
Somewhere deep in my memory was vague recall about silver birch being notorious for causing subsidence
A quick Google confirmed this with a thread from PH coming in the top 3 - spooky!
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=10...
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