So much cobblers talked about Brexit.

[sidicks]

chrispmartha said:

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

Thanks for this - it seems as though we were led to expect an annual refund, not to be paying £10bn p.a.!

“Under the previous terms, Britain's contribution to the Common Market budget imposed too heavy a burden on us. The new terms ensure that Britain will pay a fairer share. We now stand, under the Dublin agreement, to get back from Market funds up to £125 million a year.”

[Pan Pan Pan]

chrispmartha said:

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

[Pages 11 & 12]
WILL PARLIAMENT
LOSE ITS POWER?

Another anxiety expressed about Britain's membership of the Common Market is that Parliament could lose its supremacy, and we would have to obey laws passed by unelected 'faceless bureaucrats' sitting in their headquarters in Brussels.

What are the facts?

Fact No. 1 is that in the modern world even the Super Powers like America and Russia do not have complete freedom of action. Medium-sized nations like Britain are more and more subject to economic and political forces we cannot control on our own.

A striking recent example of the impact of such forces is the way the Arab oil-producing nations brought about an energy and financial crisis not only in Britain but throughout a great part of the world.

Since we cannot go it alone in the modern world, Britain has for years been a member of international groupings like the United Nations, NATO and the International Monetary Fund.

Membership of such groupings imposes both rights and duties, but has not deprived us of our national identity, or changed our way of life.

Membership of the Common Market also imposes new rights and duties on Britain, but does not deprive us of our national identity. To say that membership could force Britain to eat Euro-bread or drink Euro-beer is nonsense.

Fact No. 2. No important new policy can be decided in Brussels or anywhere else without the consent of a British Minister answerable to a British Government and British Parliament.

The top decision-making body in the Market is the Council of Ministers, which is composed of senior Ministers representing each of the nine member governments.

It is the Council of Ministers, and not the market's officials, who take the important decisions. These decisions can be taken only if all the members of the Council agree. The Minister representing Britain can veto any proposal for a new law or a new tax if he considers it to be against British interests. Ministers from the other Governments have the same right to veto.

All the nine member countries also agree that any changes or additions to the Market Treaties must be acceptable to their own Governments and Parliaments.

Remember: All the other countries in the Market today enjoy, like us, democratically elected Governments answerable to their own Parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would."

Fact No. 3. The British Parliament in Westminster retains the final right to repeal the Act which took us into the Market on January 1, 1973. Thus our continued membership will depend on the continuing assent of Parliament.

The White Paper on the new Market terms recently presented to Parliament by the Prime Minister declares that through membership of the Market we are better able to advance and protect our national interests. This is the essence of sovereignty.

Fact No. 4. On April 9, 1975, the House of Commons voted by 396 to 170 in favour of staying in on the new terms.

Edited by chrispmartha on Tuesday 23 January 14:50

And not a single mention of the European Union, only of a trading bloc Project fear 1975 style.

[chrispmartha]

sidicks said:

chrispmartha said:

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

Thanks for this - it seems as though we were led to expect an annual refund, not to be paying £10bn p.a.!

“Under the previous terms, Britain's contribution to the Common Market budget imposed too heavy a burden on us. The new terms ensure that Britain will pay a fairer share. We now stand, under the Dublin agreement, to get back from Market funds up to £125 million a year.”

refund or rebate?

[Hosenbugler]

Here are the pamphlets produced for the 1975 referendum.

Much bks spouted,or not spouted, especially concerning sovreingty

http://civitas.org.uk/eu-facts/the-1975-referendum...

This abouts hits the nail when it comes to deceitful lies.

“Remember: All the other countries in the Market enjoy, like us, democratically elected governments answerable to their own parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would.”

[Ali G]

Of course, that would imply that many European countries actually had a democratically elected government.

The reality being very, very different.

Spain? Italy? Even Germany (what wall)

[gooner1]

How does the fact a leaflet was sent to thousands of household, count as
proof of what the UK public understood what the EEC was going to morph
into. Are a younger generation trying to tell an older generation, that they have a better
recollection of how the EU was perceived in 1975?

[chrispmartha]

Hosenbugler said:

Here are the pamphlets produced for the 1975 referendum.

Much bks spouted,or not spouted, especially concerning sovreingty

http://civitas.org.uk/eu-facts/the-1975-referendum...

This abouts hits the nail when it comes to deceitful lies.

“Remember: All the other countries in the Market enjoy, like us, democratically elected governments answerable to their own parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would.”

What about this from the No campaign.

"it sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation"

Project Fear?

[anonymous-user]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Debated by who?, The general public of 1975 you really need a lesson in history. I voted in teh1975 election and I can guarantee you no mention of what the EEC would morph itself into was ever made available to the general public at that time. P.s a tiny article in the corner of one newspaper does not count in terms of making the general public aware of what the EEC would turn itself into.

If you chose to be ill informed in 1975 that was your choice. The political issues were in the campaign leaftlets and the media. Look it up. History is against you on this issue.

[Andy 308GTB]

Another Brexit thread and it immediately turns into a battle ground for the usual combatants.
Happy for you to slug it out and I can see the fun being had but I honestly believe that 95% of the population are bored with it now. They accept that it will happen and they just want to get on with their lives. I guess I could have started a new thread but maybe not...

[gooner1]

chrispmartha said:

What about this from the No campaign.

"it sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation"

Project Fear?

No mention of an EU Army?

[anonymous-user]

Copies of the 1975 leaflets are available online. Google is bipartisan and allows shouty leavers to use it. Don't be frightened!

[mx5nut]

Breadvan72 said:

Copies of the 1975 leaflets are available online. Google is bipartisan and allows shouty leavers to use it. Don't be frightened!

Facts are Brexiteer Kryptonite.

[Ali G]

mx5nut said:

Breadvan72 said:

Copies of the 1975 leaflets are available online. Google is bipartisan and allows shouty leavers to use it. Don't be frightened!

Facts are Brexiteer Kryptonite.

Don't let democracy smack you on the way out.

[Hosenbugler]

chrispmartha said:

Hosenbugler said:

Here are the pamphlets produced for the 1975 referendum.

Much bks spouted,or not spouted, especially concerning sovreingty

http://civitas.org.uk/eu-facts/the-1975-referendum...

This abouts hits the nail when it comes to deceitful lies.

“Remember: All the other countries in the Market enjoy, like us, democratically elected governments answerable to their own parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would.”

What about this from the No campaign.

"it sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation"

Project Fear?

In that case project fact. The NO camp were the best informed , it always has been about the treaty of Rome after all. It just was not trumpeted as such. I specifically recall the referendum, as it was the first time I was old enough to vote. The only pamphlet I saw was the government one. I voted to join the "Common Market" as trade was the overbearing message, scant mention of the real implications.

[gooner1]

mx5nut said:

Facts are Brexiteer Kryptonite.

Does that make you Lex Luthor?

[Mrr T]

v8250 said:

Indeed, as expected there's been near two years of utter diatribe discussed and bantered around by the politico-punters and tabloid reading vox populi. No matter how we finally complete Brexit we will at last be free from the ridiculous socio-economic constraints of Brussels and, especially, Junkers and his self-serving cronies. Read here to understand the recent real Nett cost to rebate

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/docum...

For those too lazy to read in entirety...

>>In 2016/17 the UK made an estimated gross contribution (after the rebate) of £12.2 billion. The UK received £4.1 billion of public sector receipts from the EU, so the UK’s net public sector contribution to the EU was an estimated £8.1 billion. There are different ways to measure the funds the UK receives from the EU. The above figure of £4.1 billion includes only funding allocated to UK government to manage. However, the European Commission also allocates funding directly to UK organisations, often following a competitive process. In recent years these funds have been worth around £1 billion - £1.5 billion to the UK. Accounting for these receipts results in the UK making an average net contribution of £7.1 billion between 2010 and 2014.<<

However, table.1 page.6 gives a far clearer statement of account...and that's excluding the proposed £35-39 billion release cost to be paid by 2022...and even worse, the forecast final annual payments 2018-2022 totalling some £52.7 billion

FY Nett Payment £££Bn
2018 9,100
2019 11,000
2020 11,200
2021 10,800
2022 10,600

To end, whilst there's been many millions of press written Brexit words [read: cobblers], who in their right mind could/would possibly want to habitually piss away £7-11 billion of UK tax payers money.

You are Boris Johnson and I claim my 5 euro.

It does seem a trait of some leavers to post something which is so obvious to them but shows a complete absence of any understanding of the complexities.

The above figures are correct but ignore many other questions.
1. The UK payment includes about £900M which counts towards the UK commitment to spend 1.4% of GDP on foreign aid. The government is committed to continue with that so it will still be spent just directly by the government.
2. The Government is committed to leaving the SM and CU. This means they need to build and run a customs border with the rEU, how much will that cost?
3. The EU currently has centralised institutions overseeing say the licensing of pharmaceuticals. How much will it cost the UK to set up and run equivalent institutions.
4. One of the greatest benefits to the UK economy is passporting, If that is lost it could cost the UK billions in tax revenue.

So the answer is it’s not clear cut or simple. Brexit might cost money.

[Digga]

gooner1 said:

mx5nut said:

Facts are Brexiteer Kryptonite.

Does that make you Lex Luthor?

Or...

Never seen them in the same place together. Just saying.

[chrispmartha]

Hosenbugler said:

chrispmartha said:

Hosenbugler said:

Here are the pamphlets produced for the 1975 referendum.

Much bks spouted,or not spouted, especially concerning sovreingty

http://civitas.org.uk/eu-facts/the-1975-referendum...

This abouts hits the nail when it comes to deceitful lies.

“Remember: All the other countries in the Market enjoy, like us, democratically elected governments answerable to their own parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would.”

What about this from the No campaign.

"it sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation"

Project Fear?

In that case project fact. The NO camp were the best informed , it always has been about the treaty of Rome after all. It just was not trumpeted as such. I specifically recall the referendum, as it was the first time I was old enough to vote. The only pamphlet I saw was the government one. I voted to join the "Common Market" as trade was the overbearing message, scant mention of the real implications.

Project Fact? Is the UK, France, Germany etc one nation now then?

[DapperDanMan]

Ali G said:

mx5nut said:

Breadvan72 said:

Copies of the 1975 leaflets are available online. Google is bipartisan and allows shouty leavers to use it. Don't be frightened!

Facts are Brexiteer Kryptonite.

Don't let democracy smack you on the way out.

Democracy voted Hitler in - twice. So lets not confuse democracy with making the right choice.

[Hosenbugler]

chrispmartha said:

Hosenbugler said:

chrispmartha said:

Hosenbugler said:

Here are the pamphlets produced for the 1975 referendum.

Much bks spouted,or not spouted, especially concerning sovreingty

http://civitas.org.uk/eu-facts/the-1975-referendum...

This abouts hits the nail when it comes to deceitful lies.

“Remember: All the other countries in the Market enjoy, like us, democratically elected governments answerable to their own parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would.”

What about this from the No campaign.

"it sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation"

Project Fear?

In that case project fact. The NO camp were the best informed , it always has been about the treaty of Rome after all. It just was not trumpeted as such. I specifically recall the referendum, as it was the first time I was old enough to vote. The only pamphlet I saw was the government one. I voted to join the "Common Market" as trade was the overbearing message, scant mention of the real implications.

Project Fact? Is the UK, France, Germany etc one nation now then?

Not yet, but thats the aim. A unified Europe under one government. Treaty of Rome, but you already knew that. If the EU survives, thats what will happen , without the UK now though, thankfully.