Trump's tariffs

[Rovinghawk]

PurpleMoonlight said:

I believe the idea is that if there is no market for their cheap sweatshop products, then they won't make them.

And then their employees have no work & starve?

[captain_cynic]

Kermit power said:

Morning all,

I've just been reading about Trump passing tariffs into law on imported washing machines and solar panels.

Needless to say, there's been loads of negative reaction to this, but I'm struggling to see why it's such a bad idea?

It only forces up the price of goods because you artificially constrict supply without reducing demand.

Americans hate it because it is government interfering in commerce.

Kermit power said:

We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?

Ok, wonderful, we get cheaper TVs and the like, but are they actually cheaper once the impact on our manufacturing sector is taken into account?

Protectionism has never managed to save a manufacturing sector. Tariffs wont stop manufacturing from leaving, manufacturing leaves because it's cheaper to produce something overseas in larger numbers (economies of scale). To the washing machine manufacturers they get £X profit no matter what, the only one who pays more due to tariffs are the purchasers (read: you).

All it has done is increase the cost of goods. Higher cost goods are bad because they decrease discretionary income (the money you have after taxes and bills... I.E. the money you can do what you like with). If you're spending more paying tariffs on goods you need like washing machines then you have less money to spend on other luxury items like going out (which puts more money back into the local and national economies).

We've had 50 years of increasingly free trade, who has benefited? Well you have, we all have because we're living a much higher quality of life than 1968.

Edited by captain_cynic on Tuesday 23 January 10:27

[Hayek]

Dr Jekyll said:

Kermit power said:

Morning all,
I'm not trying to make a political statement here, I'm asking a question. If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?

We'd be worse off.

TVs would cost more.
Industry would suffer due to increased costs.
Exporting would be harder because we'd be importing less.

The flip side is for any given total tax take the amount of tax on domestic productivity is likely to be lower.

During the 19th century when the US was booming there was no income tax and the (limited) government was financed on tariffs.

I've heard the libertarians argue that although no tax is the goal, tariffs are preferable to income tax as they're optional or avoidable.

[Dr Jekyll]

Hayek said:

The flip side is for any given total tax take the amount of tax on domestic productivity is likely to be lower.

During the 19th century when the US was booming there was no income tax and the (limited) government was financed on tariffs.

I've heard the libertarians argue that although no tax is the goal, tariffs are preferable to income tax as they're optional or avoidable.

But (also during the 19th century) when the UK lifted import tariffs unilaterally the UK boomed.

[Kermit power]

Dr Jekyll said:

Hayek said:

The flip side is for any given total tax take the amount of tax on domestic productivity is likely to be lower.

During the 19th century when the US was booming there was no income tax and the (limited) government was financed on tariffs.

I've heard the libertarians argue that although no tax is the goal, tariffs are preferable to income tax as they're optional or avoidable.

But (also during the 19th century) when the UK lifted import tariffs unilaterally the UK boomed.

But at a time when we owned a third of the planet, and our workers had the same sort of rights or fewer than Chinese workers have now.

I suppose what in really pondering is whether, given that we've already distorted the market so far with things like benefits and minimum wage, the traditional economic theories with regards to tariffs and the like still hold true?

[PurpleMoonlight]

Rovinghawk said:

And then their employees have no work & starve?

All hail capitalism huh.

[Tuna]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Rovinghawk said:

And then their employees have no work & starve?

All hail capitalism huh.

Industry moves on. We don't have thousands of touch typists roaming the street since computers made their jobs obsolete. People find new jobs that create value elsewhere. We want them to find new jobs that create value elsewhere, or we'd all be hailing the fact that we're keeping kids working in the fields bringing in the harvest.

[Rovinghawk]

Tuna said:

Industry moves on. We don't have thousands of touch typists roaming the street since computers made their jobs obsolete. People find new jobs that create value elsewhere. We want them to find new jobs that create value elsewhere, or we'd all be hailing the fact that we're keeping kids working in the fields bringing in the harvest.

Accepting your argument, what alternative work do you foresee for thousands of sweatshop workers in the near to medium term?

[Sway]

Rovinghawk said:

Tuna said:

Industry moves on. We don't have thousands of touch typists roaming the street since computers made their jobs obsolete. People find new jobs that create value elsewhere. We want them to find new jobs that create value elsewhere, or we'd all be hailing the fact that we're keeping kids working in the fields bringing in the harvest.

Accepting your argument, what alternative work do you foresee for thousands of sweatshop workers in the near to medium term?

Personally, there will likely be a large demand for the next few decades indigenously. The Chinese consumer doesn't seem to care - hence why Chinese law allows such sweatshops.

There should be hardly any demand, based upon the developed world's legislation regarding corporate responsibility that includes supply chain oversight and management.

[silentbrown]

V88Dicky said:

I'd guess share prices of Ebac and White Knight (washing machines), and Numatic (Henry) vacuums would see a healthy rise.

Didn't know about ebac - cheers

White Knight washing machines aren't UK made. Only their tumble dryers...

I guess the real question is what level of tariff would you need to get someone like Dyson manufacturing in the UK again - and how much actual "manufacturing" you need to do locally to avoid any tariff.

[JagLover]

Tuna said:

The point being the benefit of a cheap import that most of your population can benefit from vastly outweighs the cost of reducing a relatively small domestic industry. It happens all the time - we don't shed that many tears for our cotton factories or other jobs that have been driven to next to zero value. Instead we want our workers to move on to the industries that create more value. That way we get economic growth.

The difference being that this is not textile manufacturing or some other industry always destined to end up in a low labour cost country but the manufacture of solar panels.

If the Chinese have indeed been dumping this on the US market then trade tariffs can be applied.

[Sway]

JagLover said:

Tuna said:

The point being the benefit of a cheap import that most of your population can benefit from vastly outweighs the cost of reducing a relatively small domestic industry. It happens all the time - we don't shed that many tears for our cotton factories or other jobs that have been driven to next to zero value. Instead we want our workers to move on to the industries that create more value. That way we get economic growth.

The difference being that this is not textile manufacturing or some other industry always destined to end up in a low labour cost country but the manufacture of solar panels.

If the Chinese have indeed been dumping this on the US market then trade tariffs can be applied.

There is a distinction between global tariff regime, and specific tariff measures under Anti-dumping controls.

Personally, I want the lowest tariffs feasible, with appropriate controls to prevent specific instances of abuse.

Worth noting we only get a small percentage of the tariffs we currently levy. We could maintain the same income to th exchequer whilst slashing our tariffs by 75%.

[Tuna]

JagLover said:

The difference being that this is not textile manufacturing or some other industry always destined to end up in a low labour cost country but the manufacture of solar panels.

If the Chinese have indeed been dumping this on the US market then trade tariffs can be applied.

Can - yes indeed. Should - can't see how making cheap stuff more expensive benefits anyone.

[Sway]

Tuna said:

JagLover said:

The difference being that this is not textile manufacturing or some other industry always destined to end up in a low labour cost country but the manufacture of solar panels.

If the Chinese have indeed been dumping this on the US market then trade tariffs can be applied.

Can - yes indeed. Should - can't see how making cheap stuff more expensive benefits anyone.

With certain goods, such as solar panels, I can understand the drive. We all know China gives zero fks about environmental pollution, and that's something that ultimately effects everyone (I'm not talking carbon dioxide, but heavy metals, etc.). Should Chinese companies have a huge competitive advantage?

As always with these things, the devil is in the detail, and where we wish to position ourselves. Can't make the call on something like solar panels, where I find it easy with food for example.

[oyster]

Kermit power said:

Morning all,

I've just been reading about Trump passing tariffs into law on imported washing machines and solar panels.

Needless to say, there's been loads of negative reaction to this, but I'm struggling to see why it's such a bad idea?

We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?

Ok, wonderful, we get cheaper TVs and the like, but are they actually cheaper once the impact on our manufacturing sector is taken into account?

I'm not trying to make a political statement here, I'm asking a question. If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?

Because it's anti-capitalist. It's a rather communist suggestion to protect your own country's workers by changing rules.

What would the President's opinion be if New York City added a 25% tariff on all hotel nights within the city at a Trump-owned property?

[anonymous-user]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affai...

The above is a Rees Mogg article.

If we remove tarrifs on imports and Trump says he will not remove tarrifs on our exports, where does it leave us ?

[BoRED S2upid]

Dr Jekyll said:

If that's slave labour then don't buy their produce at all, don't just put a tariff on it.

If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?

Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.

Where is that from and by what measure are they using to determine poverty? From what I saw last time I took a train ride in China I’d say it’s still 88% the country is a st hole.

Making tat for us using slave Labour might be giving the Chinese jobs but it’s not doing much for poverty IMO.

[RicksAlfas]

silentbrown said:

White Knight washing machines aren't UK made. Only their tumble dryers...

...About 5 miles down the road from me. When we needed a new tumble dryer I was very pleased to be able support my local white goods manufacturer!

[Sway]

Ghibli said:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affai...

The above is a Rees Mogg article.

If we remove tarrifs on imports and Trump says he will not remove tarrifs on our exports, where does it leave us ?

It leaves us having more cash in our pockets for discretionary spends. The fact that Trump doesn't give those benefits to his voters is his problem.

Every single instance of a country unilaterally dropping import tariffs has seen huge levels of growth and income.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Sway said:

It leaves us having more cash in our pockets for discretionary spends. The fact that Trump doesn't give those benefits to his voters is his problem.

Every single instance of a country unilaterally dropping import tariffs has seen huge levels of growth and income.

Makes one wonder why everyone hasn't done it then.