45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. (Vol 4)

[Europa1]

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Byker28i said:

Hey Coyft

75 charges against 19 of team trump
20 further sealed indictments - probably against trump and trump family members
at least 4 of team trump are cooperating as witnesses
whilst 5 have already pleaded guilty
Cohens taken the 5th so has admitted guilt

Hows those figures?

Pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt. Just a little correction there.

Trump disagrees.

Indeed: "“The mob takes the Fifth.If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”

[frankenstein12]

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Byker28i said:

Hey Coyft

75 charges against 19 of team trump
20 further sealed indictments - probably against trump and trump family members
at least 4 of team trump are cooperating as witnesses
whilst 5 have already pleaded guilty
Cohens taken the 5th so has admitted guilt

Hows those figures?

Pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt. Just a little correction there.

Trump disagrees.

True. Much like in the UK where if you are caught drink driving and you refuse a test you are assumed guilty and banned people link pleading the 5th to guilt which is perfectly understandable as it leads to the belief you have something to hide.

Obviously there may be a criminal element reason to plead the 5th so as not to risk self incrimination or it may be a seperate reason such as risking incriminating someone else in this case maybe Trump or it could even be to avoid breaching a confidentiality agreement such as the one with Stormy the patsy which would allow her to continue to tell all.

[p1stonhead]

frankenstein12 said:

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Byker28i said:

Hey Coyft

75 charges against 19 of team trump
20 further sealed indictments - probably against trump and trump family members
at least 4 of team trump are cooperating as witnesses
whilst 5 have already pleaded guilty
Cohens taken the 5th so has admitted guilt

Hows those figures?

Pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt. Just a little correction there.

Trump disagrees.

True. Much like in the UK where if you are caught drink driving and you refuse a test you are assumed guilty and banned people link pleading the 5th to guilt which is perfectly understandable as it leads to the belief you have something to hide.

Obviously there may be a criminal element reason to plead the 5th so as not to risk self incrimination or it may be a seperate reason such as risking incriminating someone else in this case maybe Trump or it could even be to avoid breaching a confidentiality agreement such as the one with Stormy the patsy which would allow her to continue to tell all.

Would anyone really plead the fifth just to protect secrecy when they are at serious risk of going to prison for a very long time?

I can’t think of a genuine scenario where someone would plead the fifth if they were innocent. Who wouldn’t want to say anything they possibly could to prove it?

[Zod]

frankenstein12 said:

True. Much like in the UK where if you are caught drink driving and you refuse a test you are assumed guilty and banned people link pleading the 5th to guilt which is perfectly understandable as it leads to the belief you have something to hide.

Obviously there may be a criminal element reason to plead the 5th so as not to risk self incrimination or it may be a seperate reason such as risking incriminating someone else in this case maybe Trump or it could even be to avoid breaching a confidentiality agreement such as the one with Stormy the patsy which would allow her to continue to tell all.

Wrong on every count.

It is nothing like refusing an alcohol test in the UK. That is a matter of law - refuse a test and you are automatically guilty.

Testifying in court will not result in the other party being able to succeed in an action for breach of an NDA.

[frankenstein12]

Europa1 said:

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Byker28i said:

Hey Coyft

75 charges against 19 of team trump
20 further sealed indictments - probably against trump and trump family members
at least 4 of team trump are cooperating as witnesses
whilst 5 have already pleaded guilty
Cohens taken the 5th so has admitted guilt

Hows those figures?

Pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt. Just a little correction there.

Trump disagrees.

Indeed: "“The mob takes the Fifth.If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”

In which case all those screaming blue murder about Clinton are 100% correct about there being a huge cover up and her being protected by the FBI etc as most people called to be questioned over her email scandal pleaded the fifth or were given immunity from having to answer questions by the FBI.

In which case who cares about Hillary its a much bigger problem in that the FBI is biased/democrat controlled and bent and probably broke every rule in the book to protect their favoured next president Hilary Clinton which means the FBI simply cannot be trusted which in turn means Trump has been right all along.

[frankenstein12]

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Byker28i said:

Hey Coyft

75 charges against 19 of team trump
20 further sealed indictments - probably against trump and trump family members
at least 4 of team trump are cooperating as witnesses
whilst 5 have already pleaded guilty
Cohens taken the 5th so has admitted guilt

Hows those figures?

Pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt. Just a little correction there.

Trump disagrees.

True. Much like in the UK where if you are caught drink driving and you refuse a test you are assumed guilty and banned people link pleading the 5th to guilt which is perfectly understandable as it leads to the belief you have something to hide.

Obviously there may be a criminal element reason to plead the 5th so as not to risk self incrimination or it may be a seperate reason such as risking incriminating someone else in this case maybe Trump or it could even be to avoid breaching a confidentiality agreement such as the one with Stormy the patsy which would allow her to continue to tell all.

Would anyone really plead the fifth just to protect secrecy when they are at serious risk of going to prison for a very long time?

I can’t think of a genuine scenario where someone would plead the fifth if they were innocent. Who wouldn’t want to say anything they possibly could to prove it?

It depends what physical evidence they actually have on Cohen. If he believes they dont have either any evidence of wrongdoing or that the evidence they may have found is not going to be enough to make a strong case against him then pleading the 5th is very much the smart play if he is guilty of wrongdoing.


Reality is thankfully the US justice system at least still works on a basis on proving guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

I am no lawyer but realistically just because you or I may not be able to see a reason to plead the fifth for a non criminal reason there will be cases where I am sure people will have innocent reasons to do so abeit nowhere near as many to hide criminal wrongdoing.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Friday 27th April 17:36

[Europa1]

frankenstein12 said:

In which case all those screaming blue murder about Clinton are 100% correct about there being a huge cover up and her being protected by the FBI etc as most people called to be questioned over her email scandal pleaded the fifth or were given immunity from having to answer questions by the FBI.

In which case who cares about Hillary its a much bigger problem in that the FBI is biased/democrat controlled and bent and probably broke every rule in the book to protect their favoured next president Hilary Clinton which means the FBI simply cannot be trusted which in turn means Trump has been right all along.

Ummm, did you get slightly, ahem, over-refreshed at lunch?

[Zod]

frankenstein12 said:

In which case all those screaming blue murder about Clinton are 100% correct about there being a huge cover up and her being protected by the FBI etc as most people called to be questioned over her email scandal pleaded the fifth or were given immunity from having to answer questions by the FBI.

In which case who cares about Hillary its a much bigger problem in that the FBI is biased/democrat controlled and bent and probably broke every rule in the book to protect their favoured next president Hilary Clinton which means the FBI simply cannot be trusted which in turn means Trump has been right all along.

Logic's not a strong point for you, is it?

That people are pointing out that Trump is hoist by his own petard does not mean that it follows that, because two ex-State Department employees pleaded the fifth in a civil (note, not criminal) lawsuit brought by Freedom of Information campaigners (not by the FBI or DoJ), Hillary must be guilty of some offence.

[frankenstein12]

Europa1 said:

frankenstein12 said:

In which case all those screaming blue murder about Clinton are 100% correct about there being a huge cover up and her being protected by the FBI etc as most people called to be questioned over her email scandal pleaded the fifth or were given immunity from having to answer questions by the FBI.

In which case who cares about Hillary its a much bigger problem in that the FBI is biased/democrat controlled and bent and probably broke every rule in the book to protect their favoured next president Hilary Clinton which means the FBI simply cannot be trusted which in turn means Trump has been right all along.

Ummm, did you get slightly, ahem, over-refreshed at lunch?

Nope in the context of this it is a perfectly valid argument.

If as someone else has said there is no reason to plead the fifth other than to avoid self incrimination or incriminating someone in criminal activity then all those involved in the HRC email scandals etc who pleaded the fifth were guilty of being either involved in or covering up criminal activity most likely by HRC.

Likewise those who were given immunity by the FBI and there were a few choice individuals iirc who were given immunity for no fathomable reason whatsoever meaning they didnt have to testify means there was mass collusion involving the FBI as well (after all there have already been signs of it).

[Europa1]

frankenstein12 said:

Europa1 said:

frankenstein12 said:

In which case all those screaming blue murder about Clinton are 100% correct about there being a huge cover up and her being protected by the FBI etc as most people called to be questioned over her email scandal pleaded the fifth or were given immunity from having to answer questions by the FBI.

In which case who cares about Hillary its a much bigger problem in that the FBI is biased/democrat controlled and bent and probably broke every rule in the book to protect their favoured next president Hilary Clinton which means the FBI simply cannot be trusted which in turn means Trump has been right all along.

Ummm, did you get slightly, ahem, over-refreshed at lunch?

Nope in the context of this it is a perfectly valid argument.

If as someone else has said there is no reason to plead the fifth other than to avoid self incrimination or incriminating someone in criminal activity then all those involved in the HRC email scandals etc who pleaded the fifth were guilty of being either involved in or covering up criminal activity most likely by HRC.

Likewise those who were given immunity by the FBI and there were a few choice individuals iirc who were given immunity for no fathomable reason whatsoever meaning they didnt have to testify means there was mass collusion involving the FBI as well (after all there have already been signs of it).

Is this the Hillary Clinton the FBI favoured so much that they announced they were reopening their investigation shortly before the presidential election?

Edited by Europa1 on Friday 27th April 18:10

[andy_s]

There's that pesky Hillary squirrel again...

[glazbagun]

Haven't we been here before? NK ended their program under Clinton, then restarted it under bush, then stopped it, then started again. They've had nuclear reactors built by the west and oil shipmemts started/stopped... I'll believe in progress when I see it.

Though perhaps Kim has a different plan to his dad. Heres a timeline of broken promises:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_No...

[frankenstein12]

andy_s said:

There's that pesky Hillary squirrel again...

Sorry but I got called on the whole double standards issue. As such if the argument is that pleading the fifth means Cohen is guilty then the people who pleaded the 5th in the HRC email case were also all guilty ergo so was HRC and as such Trump and all his supporters claims of a mass cover up to protect Hillary are correct.

In turn it also means the FBI colluded to prect HRC which in turn means the investigation into Trump is deeply questionable since it seems the basis for the intial inquiry to begin has been proven false apparently.

[glazbagun]

frankenstein12 said:

Sorry but I got called on the whole double standards issue. As such if the argument is that pleading the fifth means Cohen is guilty then the people who pleaded the 5th in the HRC email case were also all guilty ergo so was HRC and as such Trump and all his supporters claims of a mass cover up to protect Hillary are correct.

It was Trump who made that claim, which is why he's now being pilloried. I thought that was pretty clear.

[frankenstein12]

glazbagun said:

frankenstein12 said:

Sorry but I got called on the whole double standards issue. As such if the argument is that pleading the fifth means Cohen is guilty then the people who pleaded the 5th in the HRC email case were also all guilty ergo so was HRC and as such Trump and all his supporters claims of a mass cover up to protect Hillary are correct.

It was Trump who made that claim, which is why he's now being pilloried. I thought that was pretty clear.

I am not going to go looking as cant be bothered but I vaguely recall my response being to another poster stating that anyone pleading the fifth must be guilty not in reference to Trump making the claim.

As ever everyone should be treated to the same standard so if Trump has said anyone involved in HRC situation pleading 5th is guilty then by extension he is saying Cohen is guilty.

[glazbagun]

frankenstein12 said:

I am not going to go looking as cant be bothered but I vaguely recall my response being to another poster stating that anyone pleading the fifth must be guilty not in reference to Trump making the claim.

As ever everyone should be treated to the same standard so if Trump has said anyone involved in HRC situation pleading 5th is guilty then by extension he is saying Cohen is guilty.

Yeah, this thread moves fast. It all began here:

p1stonhead said:

Cohen is going to take the fifth with anything to do with the porn star.

“Based on the advice of counsel, I will assert my 5th amendment rights in connection with all proceeding in this case due to the ongoing criminal investigation by the FBI and U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York”

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/384915-...

And here Trump saying innocent people don’t take the fifth

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/9892753698...

[Byker28i]

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Byker28i said:

Hey Coyft

75 charges against 19 of team trump
20 further sealed indictments - probably against trump and trump family members
at least 4 of team trump are cooperating as witnesses
whilst 5 have already pleaded guilty
Cohens taken the 5th so has admitted guilt

Hows those figures?

Pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt. Just a little correction there.

Trump disagrees.

Sorry - work getting in the way
Yup was following trump - plead the 5th - you're guilty

[Byker28i]

coyft said:

frankenstein12 said:

Coft I hate to side with everyone else on here but you have lost me with this one..

Thats a graph. A graph showing unemployment has been rapidly falling for over ten years and when Trump came in mid 17 it was flat mostly and has remained so.

As such how is it decreasing under Trump? Sure its not going up as many predicted it would under Trump but its also not exactly dropping dramatically either.

When Trump was elected unemployment rate was 4.6%, since then it has fallen to 4.2%. I never said it was dropping dramatically or that it wasn't following a trend.

Coyft in massive backpedel non-shocker

[Byker28i]

Hello - Cohen who had to get $130,000 loan against his house, lent a taxi mogul $26m just before the election along with his father in law, cohen gave $6m. And the guy used it to get into selling weed (smart move - lots of money there)

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/989836824628662...

Wonder what he told the bank when he went for the loan against his house?
Bank manager: so Mr Cohen - what do you need the money for
Cohen: Well certainly not to to illegally pay off a porn star so his boss won't lose an election
[Bank Manager: Any outstanding loans?
Cohen: No, certainly not to any anyone to become a drug dealer



Which is weird as Coyft would love this guy, Michael Cohen Is very rich, after all he bought 12 Trump apartments with family, bought a Manhattan apartment building for $58 million, owned 200 taxis, had a Ukrainian ethanol company and used Trump’s private planes whenever he wanted to.

Edited by Byker28i on Friday 27th April 20:06

[Byker28i]

Whoops - those pesky russian connections NO COLLUSION- NO COLLUSION!!!

The Russian lawyer who met with Trump campaign officials in Trump Tower in June 2016 on the premise that she would deliver damaging information about Hillary Clinton has long insisted she is a private attorney, not a Kremlin operative trying to meddle in the presidential election.

But newly released emails show that in at least one instance two years earlier, the lawyer, Natalia V. Veselnitskaya, worked hand in glove with Russia’s chief legal office to thwart a Justice Department civil fraud case against a well-connected Russian firm.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/us/natalya-vese...