45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. (Vol 4)
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
He's just started the NATO meeting by lambasting Germany for doing trade deals with Russia.
I know American's sometimes don't "do" irony.
No more "Ich bin ein Berliner".
It's over.
So he's criticized Germany for doing deals with Russia, a country he actively wants to work with? I know American's sometimes don't "do" irony.
No more "Ich bin ein Berliner".
It's over.
I assume he's calling out the hypocrisy of Germany criticizing his wanting a good working relationship with Russia whilst having one themselves?
arfursleep said:
So he's criticized Germany for doing deals with Russia, a country he actively wants to work with?
I assume he's calling out the hypocrisy of Germany criticizing his wanting a good working relationship with Russia whilst having one themselves?
He said that it was wrong for Germany to promote NATO whilst trading with Russia i.e. buying gas from them.I assume he's calling out the hypocrisy of Germany criticizing his wanting a good working relationship with Russia whilst having one themselves?
The man is an absolute gobs
te (to use a good old Irish expression).Trump's technique of lashing out at everyone until an oppertunity opens up is finally producing results... for China and the EU: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-09...
Merkel's been in China securing trade deals ahead of yet another Sino European meeting in what has become something of a trend of late, European and Chinese people standing on a podium together to confirm their commitment to rules based international trade (aka rewriting the rules of global trade in their favour instead of America's favour).
The video accompanying the article is a good demonstration of what's happening, the presenters demonstrate pure arrogance in talking about Americans as the 'consumers of last resort' as if this is some god given situation that will last for eternity rather than a result of two world wars stacking the deck of global trade in America's favour. This arrogance runs right through American understanding of the world from top to bottom.
What they are missing is that China needs to find a way to increase internal consumption because the authority of the government relies on expanding the Chinese middle class and continuing economic growth, failure to do so is an existential threat to the Chinese government. Similarly Germany and the EU have a consumption related existential threat, the euro can not function properly unless Spain, Italy and other countries outside the northern manufacturing block have money to consume goods, nor can the problems with the euro be resolved while fiscal transfers are politically impossible due to it being seen by northern taxpayers as a subsidy towards the south.
The thing about existential threats is that they tend to get acted on. The incentive to strip America of its role as the global consumer of choice is extremely high and only really held back by two things, 1) Europe's long cultural and military ties with America, 2) Political and cultural barriers between the EU and China. Trump is going a good job of destroying 1 and it appears that the EU and China are prepared to put effort in to making 2 come about.
It would be a fools errand to predict where this is all headed but the direction of travel is clear, Make Europe and China Great Again at the expense of American consumers.
Merkel's been in China securing trade deals ahead of yet another Sino European meeting in what has become something of a trend of late, European and Chinese people standing on a podium together to confirm their commitment to rules based international trade (aka rewriting the rules of global trade in their favour instead of America's favour).
The video accompanying the article is a good demonstration of what's happening, the presenters demonstrate pure arrogance in talking about Americans as the 'consumers of last resort' as if this is some god given situation that will last for eternity rather than a result of two world wars stacking the deck of global trade in America's favour. This arrogance runs right through American understanding of the world from top to bottom.
What they are missing is that China needs to find a way to increase internal consumption because the authority of the government relies on expanding the Chinese middle class and continuing economic growth, failure to do so is an existential threat to the Chinese government. Similarly Germany and the EU have a consumption related existential threat, the euro can not function properly unless Spain, Italy and other countries outside the northern manufacturing block have money to consume goods, nor can the problems with the euro be resolved while fiscal transfers are politically impossible due to it being seen by northern taxpayers as a subsidy towards the south.
The thing about existential threats is that they tend to get acted on. The incentive to strip America of its role as the global consumer of choice is extremely high and only really held back by two things, 1) Europe's long cultural and military ties with America, 2) Political and cultural barriers between the EU and China. Trump is going a good job of destroying 1 and it appears that the EU and China are prepared to put effort in to making 2 come about.
It would be a fools errand to predict where this is all headed but the direction of travel is clear, Make Europe and China Great Again at the expense of American consumers.
PAULJ5555 said:
Countdown said:
PAULJ5555 said:
But he has done things that he said he was going to do
Could you name one constructive thing he’s achieved? PAULJ55555 said:
You asked about NATO, are all the other countries meeting their obligations financially? or is this made up?
Yes, like many of Trump’s statements it’s made up. The 2% is a NON-BINDING target and one that NATO members said they would try to achieve by 2024.On a separate but related point - I think other countries have the right to tell Trump to GFH when he talks about “obligations” given Trump’s approach to ignoring treaties/agreements that he doesn’t like. “America First” cuts both ways.
And it's not like the US supports NATO out of the goodness of its own heart. The US benefits from allying itself with Western Democracies - because democracy is actually quite a precious thing, for all its flaws.
But Trump is too much of a an utter plonker to acknowledge that or even recognise it.
Trump is turning the US from "the arsenal of democracy" to "the arse-hole of democracy".
But Trump is too much of a an utter plonker to acknowledge that or even recognise it.
Trump is turning the US from "the arsenal of democracy" to "the arse-hole of democracy".
rscott said:
Try this - https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_152805.htm . Confirms most already have plans in place to meet the 2% target by 2024.
The link did not work for me sorry. The plans are for 6 years time, looks like Trumpy is not happy about something happening Today.PAULJ5555 said:
rscott said:
Try this - https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_152805.htm . Confirms most already have plans in place to meet the 2% target by 2024.
The link did not work for me sorry. The plans are for 6 years time, looks like Trumpy is not happy about something happening Today.PAULJ5555 said:
The link did not work for me sorry. The plans are for 6 years time, looks like Trumpy is not happy about something happening Today.
The (non binding) commitment to spend 2% was always intended to take place by 2024. So when Trump complains about it he’s moving the goalposts.(I do wonder how much of his complaining is due to the fact that a lot of NATO expenditure will be on buying US-made weapons).
amgmcqueen said:
How has Germany got away with only paying 1% all these years...?
Quite rightly Trump is calling them out and wants countries to stop taking the piss out the U.S!
They haven’t gotten away with anything. Don’t believe everything spouted by the Orange Lardbucket. Germany aren’t required to pay 2%. They have agreed to pay 2% by 2024, and plans are in place for them to do that. Donald is spouting lies (as is his wont)Quite rightly Trump is calling them out and wants countries to stop taking the piss out the U.S!
amgmcqueen said:
How has Germany got away with only paying 1% all these years...?
Quite rightly Trump is calling them out and wants countries to stop taking the piss out the U.S!
Absolutely - he's also correct about them being in the pocket of Russia due to energy reliance.Quite rightly Trump is calling them out and wants countries to stop taking the piss out the U.S!
Also, why is Merkal doing trade deals with China? Is she now 'The EU'? Ah....
amgmcqueen said:
How has Germany got away with only paying 1% all these years...?
Quite rightly Trump is calling them out and wants countries to stop taking the piss out the U.S!
Yeah, total piss takers not meeting a 2024 target yet.Quite rightly Trump is calling them out and wants countries to stop taking the piss out the U.S!
Remind me all the nations who have invoked the pact to date? I forget...
amgmcqueen said:
How has Germany got away with only paying 1% all these years...?
Quite rightly Trump is calling them out and wants countries to stop taking the piss out the U.S!
History, dear boy, history.Quite rightly Trump is calling them out and wants countries to stop taking the piss out the U.S!
Having been instrumental in instigating the two greatest wars that the world has ever seen with over 100 million dead as a result, naturally, the world has been very reluctant to allow Germany's military might to re-emerge to anything like the level it possessed in 1914 or 1939. Obviously, time has moved on and it is perhaps right that Germany shoulders more of the burden than it currently does. Germany has agreed on this as have the other NATO partners and they are working on a timetable to achieve that.
Trump, adopting his "bull in a china shop" approach to diplomacy thinks he is going to shame Germany in contributing more. It MAY work or it could have the opposite effect.
We shall see.
His main aim, of course, is to send warm and cuddly messages to his buddy in Moscow.
Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 11th July 13:29
Isn't this whole "paying into Nato" thing just a Trump lie anyway?
Countries commit to spending money on defence, not paying money into nato. Nobody is behind on payments, or owes money to anyone. Just a classic case of Trump spouting bullst that is sort of a tiny bit true, and people lapping it up.
Countries commit to spending money on defence, not paying money into nato. Nobody is behind on payments, or owes money to anyone. Just a classic case of Trump spouting bulls
t that is sort of a tiny bit true, and people lapping it up.Eric Mc said:
Germany has agreed on this as have the other NATO partners and they are working on a timetable to achieve that.
Trump, adopting his "bull in a china shop" approach to diplomacy thinks he is going to shame Germany in contributing more.
I feel like your characterisation of each side here is heavily tainted in bias. NATO member states have been '"working on a timetable" for a long time, they are dragging their heels and generally acting like the incompetent bunch of bureaucrats and career politicians that they are. This has, in part, invoked Trump's bull in a china shop approach. (I say in part because I don't think he has any other approach, but he probably wouldn't have turned his attention to it if it wasn't for the piss-taking of other NATO members) Trump, adopting his "bull in a china shop" approach to diplomacy thinks he is going to shame Germany in contributing more.
He wouldn't have turned his attention to it only for the fact that he wants to butter up Vlad.
As stated previously, there are strong historic reasons why Germany has been limited on what it could spend on its military. That has changed and Germany needs to reflect that. No argument there.
As stated previously, there are strong historic reasons why Germany has been limited on what it could spend on its military. That has changed and Germany needs to reflect that. No argument there.
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