Miami school shooting

Author
Discussion

jmorgan

36,010 posts

283 months

Sunday 25th March 2018
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
jmorgan said:
Large protest marches this weekend then.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/march-for-our...

Quite a turn out. Can they keep it up.
It will have no effect. I have policed a number of such demonstrations, nothing anywhere near so large, in this country on another cause of avoidable deaths. They too had no effect.

I can understand the sentiments behind the posts which are along the line of: 'why don't they just', and indeed I can see the logic. But perhaps why they don't can be shown by simple comparisons.

Whilst figures are in dispute, most of it is in detail. My figures can be challenged, and successfully no doubt, but mine can be supported as ballpark. My maths might be wrong though.

10,000+ pa firearms related deaths in the USA. That's excluding suicides and accidental shootings. A population of 325m gives around 30 deaths per million. This is shocking. It is not entirely preventable, but other countries seem to manage it better. We can point to the USA and say that they are a weird lot to allow this massacre to continue.

Their defence of arming the nation is illogical and amounts to a misinterpretation of the constitution. Also the NRA is a major funder of influential politicians.

In the UK as a whole there are 8000+ pa deaths related directly to alcohol. Again, the figures are argued over, but these are generally 'accepted'. The figures for those who think they are too high are too high. A population of 65m gives us a death rate of 123dpm. That's over four times the rate of firearms related deaths in the USA.

I'm not arguing for a ban, or trying to condemn; all I'm suggesting is that the situations are similar.
Hard to say which way, not sure I would call it. One thing I will never do is underestimate the X in the box and in a few years time they will be able to.

Think in the UK DIY is a big killer as well, I expect that is multiplied some in the US but a small metal contraption that some see as their god given right will always be divisive, more so than the other causes. Sticking a drill through a means cable is unfortunate, sticking a lever on a device that needs a small amount of absence of thought and detachment to the act to pull is a tad different. It will be interesting to see where they go with it, reading somewhere that some law makers were in on the march and others around the US are looking to get permission to alter laws. Not sure how this last bit is needed but federal law overriding at the moment?

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Sunday 25th March 2018
quotequote all
I'm pretty sure these marches will have an effect; I expect the NRA will direct more funding at pro-gun Democrats to make sure they stuff congress with friends in the mid-terms.

https://www.politico.com/election-results/2018/

Scobblelotcher

1,724 posts

111 months

Sunday 25th March 2018
quotequote all
davepoth said:
I'm pretty sure these marches will have an effect; I expect the NRA will direct more funding at pro-gun Democrats to make sure they stuff congress with friends in the mid-terms.

https://www.politico.com/election-results/2018/
NRA’s response to the some of the most recent shootings.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/techandcultu...

jmorgan

36,010 posts

283 months

Sunday 25th March 2018
quotequote all
Some of the pro gun lobby have been out and out scary tactics on this march. Toys out the pram threats and fake pics, breitbart really shows where some of the bile will come from.

Gary C

12,313 posts

178 months

Sunday 25th March 2018
quotequote all
davepoth said:
I'm pretty sure these marches will have an effect; I expect the NRA will direct more funding at pro-gun Democrats to make sure they stuff congress with friends in the mid-terms.

https://www.politico.com/election-results/2018/
Daft thing is, while stats do indeed show a swing towards favouring gun control, the proportion of people wanting it is still less than it was 20(?) years ago.

Even Trump was in favour of gun control in the past (but you can't trust a thing that comes out of his mouth, just says what ever he thinks people want to hear, wonder if he is related to berni Ecclestone ?)

frisbee

4,958 posts

109 months

Sunday 25th March 2018
quotequote all
davepoth said:
I'm pretty sure these marches will have an effect; I expect the NRA will direct more funding at pro-gun Democrats to make sure they stuff congress with friends in the mid-terms.

https://www.politico.com/election-results/2018/
The NRA's political bribes are relatively insignificant, they don't even get into the top 50. It'll depend how the bigger lobbyists react.

AW111

9,455 posts

132 months

Monday 26th March 2018
quotequote all
frisbee said:
The NRA's political bribes are relatively insignificant, they don't even get into the top 50. It'll depend how the bigger lobbyists react.
The NRA's main tactics seem to be targeted threats. eg "Vote for gun control and we'll run attack ads against you"

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Thursday 29th March 2018
quotequote all
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG

AJL308

6,390 posts

155 months

Thursday 29th March 2018
quotequote all
red_slr said:
Something is better than nothing. Also to get through steel plate your average .223 or even .308 wont even put a dent in it.
Depends, 'steel plate' encompasses a huge variety of things. You'd be surprised what a .308 will go through.

AJL308

6,390 posts

155 months

Thursday 29th March 2018
quotequote all
Gary C said:
AJL308 said:
Gary C said:
AJL308 said:
Efbe said:
What does it matter?
The US has clearly misinterpreted the 2A to mean everyone has a right to bear arms, ignoring that this should be to support a militia.
And you are ignoring the fact that the 'militia' essentially comprises everyone.
And the states really needs one ?
Doesn't matter what it needs. That is the Constitution - which was the whole point of the discussion.
So I can't ask a pertinent question ? And just because it's in the constitution, does that mean it can't be changes, like, maybe some sort of amendment ?
Yes, it can. Until it is though......

AJL308

6,390 posts

155 months

Thursday 29th March 2018
quotequote all
frankenstein12 said:
Russian Troll Bot said:
9 year old shoots his 13 year old sister dead after an argument about a video game controller

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/19/us/boy-shot-sis...


The problem here is obvious. If children weren't allowed to play video games, there wouldn't have been a controller to argue over in the first place. I am glad they are bringing in tighter restrictions.
No the problem here is that the parents should be made an example of to make Americans aware of the risks of being a stupid fk. Who keeps a loaded gun in an unlocked bedside table?? Especially when there are kids around. How monumentally stupid do you have to be???

As said my dad had a gun in the house when i was 15. It was ALWAYS kept locked in a safe and if it wasnt in the safe it was always on or near him where he could make sure nobody else could touch it. Common sense.

Frankly stories like this make me think the parents not only should be spending a long time in jail I also think they should be sterilised so they dont sully the gene pool anymore.
Exactly. As far as I'm aware this is already illegal in the US so how would 'gun control' in general stop it? Even if the gun were registered and the owner licensed hoe does that stop them doing something fkwitted with said gun?

Like I said previously, this isn't a problem with guns, per-se, it's a problem of Americans with guns.

frankenstein12

1,915 posts

95 months

Thursday 29th March 2018
quotequote all
rscott said:
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG
And your point is?

Reality is shooter was engaged by school security and ended up shooting himself. Had school security not been there he may have harmed others or tried to get away.

Also reading the story it sounds like the security tried to shoot the gun out of his hand or simply hit it by accident.

Aside from anything else reading the notes it sounds like the gun was registered to his dad. His dad should be held and charged as an accessory and made an example of so that other parents in the US maybe sit up and realise that allowing teenagers unfettered access to guns can get you thrown in jail.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Friday 30th March 2018
quotequote all
frankenstein12 said:
rscott said:
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG
And your point is?

Reality is shooter was engaged by school security and ended up shooting himself. Had school security not been there he may have harmed others or tried to get away.

Also reading the story it sounds like the security tried to shoot the gun out of his hand or simply hit it by accident.

Aside from anything else reading the notes it sounds like the gun was registered to his dad. His dad should be held and charged as an accessory and made an example of so that other parents in the US maybe sit up and realise that allowing teenagers unfettered access to guns can get you thrown in jail.
My point is that the NRA (and others) claimed the "good guy with a gun" had shot dead the kid, bringing his attack to an end. Something which turns out to be completely untrue.

Gary C

12,313 posts

178 months

Friday 30th March 2018
quotequote all
rscott said:
frankenstein12 said:
rscott said:
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG
And your point is?

Reality is shooter was engaged by school security and ended up shooting himself. Had school security not been there he may have harmed others or tried to get away.

Also reading the story it sounds like the security tried to shoot the gun out of his hand or simply hit it by accident.

Aside from anything else reading the notes it sounds like the gun was registered to his dad. His dad should be held and charged as an accessory and made an example of so that other parents in the US maybe sit up and realise that allowing teenagers unfettered access to guns can get you thrown in jail.
My point is that the NRA (and others) claimed the "good guy with a gun" had shot dead the kid, bringing his attack to an end. Something which turns out to be completely untrue.
Lol, love the quote about 'tried to shoot the gun out of his hand' hand guns are not that accurate. Maybe they should arm the security with G36's with ACOG sights, I'm sure that would reduce the number of school shootings...............no I'm not being serious.

frankenstein12

1,915 posts

95 months

Friday 30th March 2018
quotequote all
rscott said:
frankenstein12 said:
rscott said:
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG
And your point is?

Reality is shooter was engaged by school security and ended up shooting himself. Had school security not been there he may have harmed others or tried to get away.

Also reading the story it sounds like the security tried to shoot the gun out of his hand or simply hit it by accident.

Aside from anything else reading the notes it sounds like the gun was registered to his dad. His dad should be held and charged as an accessory and made an example of so that other parents in the US maybe sit up and realise that allowing teenagers unfettered access to guns can get you thrown in jail.
My point is that the NRA (and others) claimed the "good guy with a gun" had shot dead the kid, bringing his attack to an end. Something which turns out to be completely untrue.
So yet again villainising the NRA none of whos members are associated with any of the gun violence.

Yes they stupidly claimed the Good guy shot the bad guy based on poor information much like many others at the time when they should have waited for the official report showing what actually happened however people always do this regardless of who and where they are.

They make statements without knowing full facts to prove their point and it turns out they were wrong. Fact of life.

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Friday 30th March 2018
quotequote all
Gary C said:
rscott said:
frankenstein12 said:
rscott said:
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG
And your point is?

Reality is shooter was engaged by school security and ended up shooting himself. Had school security not been there he may have harmed others or tried to get away.

Also reading the story it sounds like the security tried to shoot the gun out of his hand or simply hit it by accident.

Aside from anything else reading the notes it sounds like the gun was registered to his dad. His dad should be held and charged as an accessory and made an example of so that other parents in the US maybe sit up and realise that allowing teenagers unfettered access to guns can get you thrown in jail.
My point is that the NRA (and others) claimed the "good guy with a gun" had shot dead the kid, bringing his attack to an end. Something which turns out to be completely untrue.
Lol, love the quote about 'tried to shoot the gun out of his hand' hand guns are not that accurate. Maybe they should arm the security with G36's with ACOG sights, I'm sure that would reduce the number of school shootings...............no I'm not being serious.
Shooting the gun out of someone's hand is Hollywood bks. It's possible if someone is very still and you have a decent time to aim. In a live shooting you would aim for the chest.

frankenstein12

1,915 posts

95 months

Friday 30th March 2018
quotequote all
98elise said:
Gary C said:
rscott said:
frankenstein12 said:
rscott said:
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG
And your point is?

Reality is shooter was engaged by school security and ended up shooting himself. Had school security not been there he may have harmed others or tried to get away.

Also reading the story it sounds like the security tried to shoot the gun out of his hand or simply hit it by accident.

Aside from anything else reading the notes it sounds like the gun was registered to his dad. His dad should be held and charged as an accessory and made an example of so that other parents in the US maybe sit up and realise that allowing teenagers unfettered access to guns can get you thrown in jail.
My point is that the NRA (and others) claimed the "good guy with a gun" had shot dead the kid, bringing his attack to an end. Something which turns out to be completely untrue.
Lol, love the quote about 'tried to shoot the gun out of his hand' hand guns are not that accurate. Maybe they should arm the security with G36's with ACOG sights, I'm sure that would reduce the number of school shootings...............no I'm not being serious.
Shooting the gun out of someone's hand is Hollywood bks. It's possible if someone is very still and you have a decent time to aim. In a live shooting you would aim for the chest.
Were any of us there? Are any of us the school security guard? If not its all conjecture. The way i read the article the shooter shot himself. It is not unreasonable to consider that the security guard maybe tried to shoot the shooters gun to stop the shooter killing himself and got a lucky shot.

I didnt say real life is like hollywood movies but real life rarely works the way we expect. The article states the guards bullet hit the shooters gun. There is a reasonable question as to how given the shooter apparently had his gun pointed at his own head.

mko9

2,328 posts

211 months

Friday 30th March 2018
quotequote all
98elise said:
Gary C said:
rscott said:
frankenstein12 said:
rscott said:
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG
And your point is?

Reality is shooter was engaged by school security and ended up shooting himself. Had school security not been there he may have harmed others or tried to get away.

Also reading the story it sounds like the security tried to shoot the gun out of his hand or simply hit it by accident.

Aside from anything else reading the notes it sounds like the gun was registered to his dad. His dad should be held and charged as an accessory and made an example of so that other parents in the US maybe sit up and realise that allowing teenagers unfettered access to guns can get you thrown in jail.
My point is that the NRA (and others) claimed the "good guy with a gun" had shot dead the kid, bringing his attack to an end. Something which turns out to be completely untrue.
Lol, love the quote about 'tried to shoot the gun out of his hand' hand guns are not that accurate. Maybe they should arm the security with G36's with ACOG sights, I'm sure that would reduce the number of school shootings...............no I'm not being serious.
Shooting the gun out of someone's hand is Hollywood bks. It's possible if someone is very still and you have a decent time to aim. In a live shooting you would aim for the chest.
Bottom line is, just like in Las Vegas, and Sandy Hook, and Viriginia Tesh, and Columbine, and many others, when armed resistance showed up the killer offed himself.

In this case, you can scoff all you want that the response officer didn't do anything, but he had already put one round into the shooter when the shooter offed himself. If he hadn't killed himself, it is fairly obvious that the response officer would have killed him shortly thereafter.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Friday 30th March 2018
quotequote all
frankenstein12 said:
rscott said:
frankenstein12 said:
rscott said:
Hmm. Turns out the Maryland school shooter wasn't shot by a good guy with a gun after all... He shot himself - http://qklnk.co/0AmUPG
And your point is?

Reality is shooter was engaged by school security and ended up shooting himself. Had school security not been there he may have harmed others or tried to get away.

Also reading the story it sounds like the security tried to shoot the gun out of his hand or simply hit it by accident.

Aside from anything else reading the notes it sounds like the gun was registered to his dad. His dad should be held and charged as an accessory and made an example of so that other parents in the US maybe sit up and realise that allowing teenagers unfettered access to guns can get you thrown in jail.
My point is that the NRA (and others) claimed the "good guy with a gun" had shot dead the kid, bringing his attack to an end. Something which turns out to be completely untrue.
So yet again villainising the NRA none of whos members are associated with any of the gun violence.

Yes they stupidly claimed the Good guy shot the bad guy based on poor information much like many others at the time when they should have waited for the official report showing what actually happened however people always do this regardless of who and where they are.

They make statements without knowing full facts to prove their point and it turns out they were wrong. Fact of life.
Did anyone villanise the NRA or accuse them/their members of carrying out the shooting?

Answer - no. The NRA picked up an unverified rumour and spread it as fact in order to justify putting more guns in schools. They have been rightly condemned for doing that.

Butter Face

30,192 posts

159 months

Friday 20th July 2018
quotequote all
A very sad update on this story.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-4490259...

Well, connected anyway. Guns don’t kill people etc etc.

Poor bloke.