Miami school shooting
Discussion
durbster said:
Aw, some people with masculinity issues will have to hand in their guns. Boo f
king hoo.
That majority of Americans are in favour of improved gun laws so how about bks to the tiny minority of people who will get upset. They'll get over it. Perhaps everyone else could club together and send them some thoughts and prayers.
The problem with that idea is that you presumably want to ban the AR-15. There are a lot of rifles on sale in the US, but the AR-15 is the single most popular rifle, so ordinary people buy them. Millions of them have been sold and it is a lot more than "people with masculinity issues".king hoo.That majority of Americans are in favour of improved gun laws so how about b
ks to the tiny minority of people who will get upset. They'll get over it. Perhaps everyone else could club together and send them some thoughts and prayers.Also it is not a "tiny minority of people who will get upset". The Pew survey has tracked attitudes to gun control for decades and opinion is roughly evenly split. Even of those who say they want stricter laws, this includes everything from people who would like to see an outright ban to people who don't want to ban anything, but would just like things like waiting periods before purchase.
Ructions said:
Fear and anger. Watching BBC2 at the minute, Life and Death Row, they all appear to have issues.
Umm ok. So you have watched a TV program about people convicted about exceptionally serious crimes, then formed an opinion about the country. Do you also decide the UK is turning to st when you see TV programs about home grown crimes?DurianIceCream said:
Ructions said:
Fear and anger. Watching BBC2 at the minute, Life and Death Row, they all appear to have issues.
Umm ok. So you have watched a TV program about people convicted about exceptionally serious crimes, then formed an opinion about the country. Do you also decide the UK is turning to st when you see TV programs about home grown crimes?Edited by Ructions on Sunday 18th February 22:25
DurianIceCream said:
durbster said:
Aw, some people with masculinity issues will have to hand in their guns. Boo fking hoo.
That majority of Americans are in favour of improved gun laws so how about bks to the tiny minority of people who will get upset. They'll get over it. Perhaps everyone else could club together and send them some thoughts and prayers.
The problem with that idea is that you presumably want to ban the AR-15. There are a lot of rifles on sale in the US, but the AR-15 is the single most popular rifle, so ordinary people buy them. Millions of them have been sold and it is a lot more than "people with masculinity issues".king hoo.That majority of Americans are in favour of improved gun laws so how about b
ks to the tiny minority of people who will get upset. They'll get over it. Perhaps everyone else could club together and send them some thoughts and prayers.DurianIceCream said:
Also it is not a "tiny minority of people who will get upset". The Pew survey has tracked attitudes to gun control for decades and opinion is roughly evenly split. Even of those who say they want stricter laws, this includes everything from people who would like to see an outright ban to people who don't want to ban anything, but would just like things like waiting periods before purchase.
Blimey, you're right. It is a lot closer than I thought according to this Pew study:http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/22/public-view...
I had assumed most Americans would be in favour of improving the gun legislation because, well, it is insane not to.
DurianIceCream said:
durbster said:
Aw, some people with masculinity issues will have to hand in their guns. Boo fking hoo.
That majority of Americans are in favour of improved gun laws so how about bks to the tiny minority of people who will get upset. They'll get over it. Perhaps everyone else could club together and send them some thoughts and prayers.
The problem with that idea is that you presumably want to ban the AR-15. There are a lot of rifles on sale in the US, but the AR-15 is the single most popular rifle, so ordinary people buy them. Millions of them have been sold and it is a lot more than "people with masculinity issues".king hoo.That majority of Americans are in favour of improved gun laws so how about b
ks to the tiny minority of people who will get upset. They'll get over it. Perhaps everyone else could club together and send them some thoughts and prayers.Also it is not a "tiny minority of people who will get upset". The Pew survey has tracked attitudes to gun control for decades and opinion is roughly evenly split. Even of those who say they want stricter laws, this includes everything from people who would like to see an outright ban to people who don't want to ban anything, but would just like things like waiting periods before purchase.
They have high levels of gun ownership (highest in Europe) yet don't have anything like the level of gun crime.
However, they have very strict restrictions on carrying firearms in public and the types of weapons available.
They managed to find a sensible compromise between an outright ban and allowing an 18 year old with known mental health issues to buy an AR15.
They even allow the militia to keep firearms at home (equivalent to the 2nd amendment)
Any reasons the US couldn't follow suit (other than "they won't give up their guns")?
rscott said:
The Swiss, who have a great history as hunters (going back well before the US constitution existed..) seem to be able to cope with not being able to obtain semi automatic weapons of any sort (be they AR15s or anything else).
You can buy semi-automatics in Switzerland and infact in most western countries. The UK is an outlier in that you can't buy most semi-automatics. rscott said:
So repeal all laws and scrap all police then. No point having them i guess.
I was talking about cases like this one. As somebody else said here, it's about gun culture not gun laws.Would different gun laws change gun culture? Probably yes but it would certainly take a LOT of time.
DurianIceCream said:
rscott said:
The Swiss, who have a great history as hunters (going back well before the US constitution existed..) seem to be able to cope with not being able to obtain semi automatic weapons of any sort (be they AR15s or anything else).
You can buy semi-automatics in Switzerland and infact in most western countries. The UK is an outlier in that you can't buy most semi-automatics. There's already a strict requirement to vet purchasers - they need to have clean criminal records, plus pass security checks and not be psychiatrically disqualified. The same strict checks apply to purchasing ammunition.
So yes, it's possible to buy some guns and ammo, but with much stricter vetting and control as to their use and possession in public.
All that in a country with a far longer history of hunting and target shooting than the USA.
rscott said:
Not after August this year when they have to implement the latest update to the EU Firearms Directive (because of their Schengen membership). That'll ban semi auto weapons.
There's already a strict requirement to vet purchasers - they need to have clean criminal records, plus pass security checks and not be psychiatrically disqualified. The same strict checks apply to purchasing ammunition.
So yes, it's possible to buy some guns and ammo, but with much stricter vetting and control as to their use and possession in public.
All that in a country with a far longer history of hunting and target shooting than the USA.
No, semi-automatics will still be legal. The EU firearms directive is here:There's already a strict requirement to vet purchasers - they need to have clean criminal records, plus pass security checks and not be psychiatrically disqualified. The same strict checks apply to purchasing ammunition.
So yes, it's possible to buy some guns and ammo, but with much stricter vetting and control as to their use and possession in public.
All that in a country with a far longer history of hunting and target shooting than the USA.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML...
Category A only is prohibited. Category A does not include the large majority of semi-automatics.
You will still have semi-auto pistols with a 20 round magazine capacity limit and semi-auto rifles with a 10 round magazine capacity limit.
Edited by DurianIceCream on Monday 19th February 00:18
DurianIceCream said:
rscott said:
Not after August this year when they have to implement the latest update to the EU Firearms Directive (because of their Schengen membership). That'll ban semi auto weapons.
There's already a strict requirement to vet purchasers - they need to have clean criminal records, plus pass security checks and not be psychiatrically disqualified. The same strict checks apply to purchasing ammunition.
So yes, it's possible to buy some guns and ammo, but with much stricter vetting and control as to their use and possession in public.
All that in a country with a far longer history of hunting and target shooting than the USA.
No, semi-automatics will still be legal. The EU firearms directive is here:There's already a strict requirement to vet purchasers - they need to have clean criminal records, plus pass security checks and not be psychiatrically disqualified. The same strict checks apply to purchasing ammunition.
So yes, it's possible to buy some guns and ammo, but with much stricter vetting and control as to their use and possession in public.
All that in a country with a far longer history of hunting and target shooting than the USA.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML...
Category A only is prohibited. Category A does not include the large majority of semi-automatics.
You will still have semi-auto pistols with a 20 round magazine capacity limit and semi-auto rifles with a 10 round magazine capacity limit.
Edited by DurianIceCream on Monday 19th February 00:18
I've been reading about the Swiss gun ownership situation, and as usual, the statistics and percentages quoted don't seem to tell the whole story.
It is thought that Up to 600,000 Swiss citizens own their own ex military service weapons. These were purchased, by right after their conscripted service. They were encouraged to buy their own weapon, for national security of the country, by the government following military training and service. To maintain the right to keep the weapon they must adhere to the laws governing permits.
However, those weapons, some of which are now decades old, have one problem. The owners no longer have the right to buy ammunition for them, and most have run out of ammo for them. The government recovered over 99% of the ammunition previously issued for these ex service weapons and no longer allows it to be purchased widely and uncontrolled. The government does encourage use of these weapons at ranges and allows purchase of ammunition for this purpose. Were it Is purchased, it must be used at a range and cannot be taken home. In circumstances of national emergency, the ammo will be issued from central controlled resources.
There is still a very large take up of sports/target shooting, but this exclusively happens at gun clubs and ranges. I.e., you can't do it in your back garden! . It is also illegal to carry weapons in public, outside of the strict controls which govern those weapons. The participation rates in national shooting competitions and events is plummeting.
Hunting is very popular and there is no restriction to buying weapons for hunting. However this is restricted to single shot bolt action weapons or multi barrel shotguns. There are laws on varying and transporting weapons used in hunting.
There are major differences in the national mentality of gun ownership in my view though. The majority of Swiss people own guns with the main reason being national security, not personal security. Additionally, many types of ammunition have very tight controls.
There are many firearms deaths in Switzerland (compared to other EU countries) however the majority of these are self inflicted, either suicide or accidental.
Carry permits are available, however there are severe restrictions in both granting and use.
I think the general reasons for owning guns in the US are far different from that of Switzerland, despite the original reason (militias defending the country from internal and external threats) being substantial parts of the national mindset of both countries. Outside of sports shooting, many US weapons appear to be bought for personal protection reasons, or for the very reasons of 'it's my right to', and the laws governing them in some states are very lax compared to Switzerland.
The ability of someone to go into a retailer and purchase a (non bolt action) weapon and lots of ammunition in some states in the US is vastly different from Switzerland. The laws seem massively tighter and the laws appear to be adhered to in Switzerland. The Houston shooting demonstrated a massive differnce. You simply couldn't purchase the arsenal of weapons and ammunition used in Houston in switzerland like you could in Texas and surrounding states. Some of the ammo used in Houston was also illegal and yet it seems easily available. The same with the recent Florida shooting.
The restriction of available ammunition seems to be a major factor in Swiss gun law. Not so in the US.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switze...
It is thought that Up to 600,000 Swiss citizens own their own ex military service weapons. These were purchased, by right after their conscripted service. They were encouraged to buy their own weapon, for national security of the country, by the government following military training and service. To maintain the right to keep the weapon they must adhere to the laws governing permits.
However, those weapons, some of which are now decades old, have one problem. The owners no longer have the right to buy ammunition for them, and most have run out of ammo for them. The government recovered over 99% of the ammunition previously issued for these ex service weapons and no longer allows it to be purchased widely and uncontrolled. The government does encourage use of these weapons at ranges and allows purchase of ammunition for this purpose. Were it Is purchased, it must be used at a range and cannot be taken home. In circumstances of national emergency, the ammo will be issued from central controlled resources.
There is still a very large take up of sports/target shooting, but this exclusively happens at gun clubs and ranges. I.e., you can't do it in your back garden! . It is also illegal to carry weapons in public, outside of the strict controls which govern those weapons. The participation rates in national shooting competitions and events is plummeting.
Hunting is very popular and there is no restriction to buying weapons for hunting. However this is restricted to single shot bolt action weapons or multi barrel shotguns. There are laws on varying and transporting weapons used in hunting.
There are major differences in the national mentality of gun ownership in my view though. The majority of Swiss people own guns with the main reason being national security, not personal security. Additionally, many types of ammunition have very tight controls.
There are many firearms deaths in Switzerland (compared to other EU countries) however the majority of these are self inflicted, either suicide or accidental.
Carry permits are available, however there are severe restrictions in both granting and use.
I think the general reasons for owning guns in the US are far different from that of Switzerland, despite the original reason (militias defending the country from internal and external threats) being substantial parts of the national mindset of both countries. Outside of sports shooting, many US weapons appear to be bought for personal protection reasons, or for the very reasons of 'it's my right to', and the laws governing them in some states are very lax compared to Switzerland.
The ability of someone to go into a retailer and purchase a (non bolt action) weapon and lots of ammunition in some states in the US is vastly different from Switzerland. The laws seem massively tighter and the laws appear to be adhered to in Switzerland. The Houston shooting demonstrated a massive differnce. You simply couldn't purchase the arsenal of weapons and ammunition used in Houston in switzerland like you could in Texas and surrounding states. Some of the ammo used in Houston was also illegal and yet it seems easily available. The same with the recent Florida shooting.
The restriction of available ammunition seems to be a major factor in Swiss gun law. Not so in the US.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switze...
andy_s said:
Penelope Stopit said:
It's all about gun culture, a fresh start is needed and people need educating, at a guess it would take something like 50 years to show some positive results
I wonder why there hasn't been a national strike over this situation
There's a planned nationwide student walkout in March I believe. Perhaps the next generation will be a little more enlightened. I wonder why there hasn't been a national strike over this situation
TTmonkey said:
The owners no longer have the right to buy ammunition for them, and most have run out of ammo for them. The government recovered over 99% of the ammunition previously issued for these ex service weapons and no longer allows it to be purchased widely and uncontrolled. The government does encourage use of these weapons at ranges and allows purchase of ammunition for this purpose. Were it Is purchased, it must be used at a range and cannot be taken home. In circumstances of national emergency, the ammo will be issued from central controlled resources.
I am not sure I trust their figures on ammo! I have seen people shooting old govt issue ammo.. little brown boxes 50 rounds at a time..I was under the impression that for normal people (hunters and target shooters) there is no issue with ammo being kept at home, just has to be kept like in the UK.
I thought the restriction on ammo was placed on military guys. So you come out of the army and buy your rifle you then have legal authority to own that rifle however in order to shoot it you have to go to a range and shoot range ammo and then leave without any spare ammo. Where as a licence holder for private purposes has a similar slot on their licence for ammo that we have here and all ammo purchases are recorded, just like here?
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
red_slr said:
TTmonkey said:
The owners no longer have the right to buy ammunition for them, and most have run out of ammo for them. The government recovered over 99% of the ammunition previously issued for these ex service weapons and no longer allows it to be purchased widely and uncontrolled. The government does encourage use of these weapons at ranges and allows purchase of ammunition for this purpose. Were it Is purchased, it must be used at a range and cannot be taken home. In circumstances of national emergency, the ammo will be issued from central controlled resources.
I am not sure I trust their figures on ammo! I have seen people shooting old govt issue ammo.. little brown boxes 50 rounds at a time..I was under the impression that for normal people (hunters and target shooters) there is no issue with ammo being kept at home, just has to be kept like in the UK.
I thought the restriction on ammo was placed on military guys. So you come out of the army and buy your rifle you then have legal authority to own that rifle however in order to shoot it you have to go to a range and shoot range ammo and then leave without any spare ammo. Where as a licence holder for private purposes has a similar slot on their licence for ammo that we have here and all ammo purchases are recorded, just like here?
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Certainly seems a lot harder to buy ammo there, if being used away from a range, at least for military style weapons
I think there are 2 classes of firearms owners over there, in broad terms. (they also have CCW, armed guards etc)
Ex military who can own their ex service rifle without a licence. AFAIK they are the ones who can only shoot at a range with ammo purchased there.
The other class is like the UK, normal people who shoot for sports. Hunters and target shooters. I think they apply for their licence and then can buy and store ammo at home.
That's as I understand it. Could be wrong though!
Ex military who can own their ex service rifle without a licence. AFAIK they are the ones who can only shoot at a range with ammo purchased there.
The other class is like the UK, normal people who shoot for sports. Hunters and target shooters. I think they apply for their licence and then can buy and store ammo at home.
That's as I understand it. Could be wrong though!
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