Iceland to ban circumcision
Discussion
Troubleatmill said:
DurianIceCream said:
Troubleatmill said:
You did see the botched circumcisions carried out in the EU. But did not comment.
Un-neccessary surgery - permanently damaged cocks.
Will you comment now?
Yes, circumcision is a safe procedure. It is generally noted as having a complication rate of about 2% and the complications are easily dealt with. Un-neccessary surgery - permanently damaged cocks.
Will you comment now?
The pictures linked are from an anti-circumcision propaganda site which, if you look at their home page, their main business is selling fake foreskins. There is no information on what happened, where it happened or why it happened. Does this look like the sort of thing which is reasonable to comment on?
As I noted above, I post links to WHO and medical journals, everyone else posts links to crackpot websites.
I can link to medical journals too..
Bollinger, D., Van Howe, R. S. (2010). Alexithymia and Circumcision Trauma: A Preliminary Investigation.
Erectile disfunction, alexithymia, etc etc
Thorup J, Thorup SC, Ifaoui1IBR. Complication rate after circumcision in a paediatric surgical setting should not be neglected. Dan Med J. 2013;60(8):1–3.
5.1% of boys will have significant complications.
Patel H. The problem of routine infant circumcision. Can Med Assoc J. 1966;95:576-81
and the rate can be as high as 55% for all complications
Joudi M, Fathi M, Hiradfar M. Incidence of asymptomatic meatal stenosis in children following neonatal circumcision J Ped Urol. 2011;7(5):526-8.
Meatal stenosis (narrowing of the urinary opening) is found in 20% of circumcised boys
Van Howe RS. A cost-utility analysis of neonatal circumcision. Med Decis Making. 2004;24:584-601
The average male will have more health problems from being circumcised than from being left alone.
And Circumcision in the news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20...
( Hundreds more articles where that came from )
Over to you...
The difference is huge and to deny your boy this for no good medical or other reason is appalling.
Of course if DurianIceCream was cut as a baby he will not have a clue what the difference is and will be happy thinking he knows what pleasurable sex is and claim no harm is done by the procedure. He is absolutely wrong about both of these assumptions.
The reduction in sexual pleasure does not appear to have been explored much as regards this procedure, officially or otherwise.
Anybody as an adult electing to have the procedure done without a medical reason should really think long and hard about what they are going to give up - to do it to a baby is sheer selfish stupidity.
DurianIceCream said:
Yes, circumcision is a safe procedure. It is generally noted as having a complication rate of about 2% and the complications are easily dealt with.
The pictures linked are from an anti-circumcision propaganda site which, if you look at their home page, their main business is selling fake foreskins. There is no information on what happened, where it happened or why it happened. Does this look like the sort of thing which is reasonable to comment on?
As I noted above, I post links to WHO and medical journals, everyone else posts links to crackpot websites.
If you could at least dig up some genuine complaints by parents where the circumcision has gone very wrong, that would be more credible than a company selling fake foreskins.
Wouldn't a site selling fake foreskins be like a Turkey voting for Xmas,The pictures linked are from an anti-circumcision propaganda site which, if you look at their home page, their main business is selling fake foreskins. There is no information on what happened, where it happened or why it happened. Does this look like the sort of thing which is reasonable to comment on?
As I noted above, I post links to WHO and medical journals, everyone else posts links to crackpot websites.
If you could at least dig up some genuine complaints by parents where the circumcision has gone very wrong, that would be more credible than a company selling fake foreskins.
by being against circumcision?
Edited by gooner1 on Sunday 25th February 00:09
Gary C said:
I would hope no one on here would disagree that FGM is a far more serious issue then male circumcision and that all efforts should be made to stop it.
See Dromadery66 post above, he seems to disagree.Gary C said:
But that doesn't mean that performing circumcision on children, for religious or cultural reasons is right.
I have not argued that it is. I've just said that as FGM has been illegal for 30+ years, yet we haven't tackled the problem at all, there seems little point in bothering to outlaw circumcision. When we've done something about FGM, then it might be worth addressing. TwigtheWonderkid said:
I have not argued that it is. I've just said that as FGM has been illegal for 30+ years, yet we haven't tackled the problem at all, there seems little point in bothering to outlaw circumcision. When we've done something about FGM, then it might be worth addressing.
Are you advocating that until FGM is sorted, we should not opposethe mutilation of INFANTS?
I wrote the above in capitals because, to use your words,
some thickos don't seem to be able to differentiate between circumcision
as a choice for those able to communicate their wishes, and those that
have the practice forced upon them.
Btw, you mention that circumcision was in practice long before religions adopted it, was
this for both sexes, and could you provide a link to this. TIA.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I have not argued that it is. I've just said that as FGM has been illegal for 30+ years, yet we haven't tackled the problem at all, there seems little point in bothering to outlaw circumcision. When we've done something about FGM, then it might be worth addressing.
What a ridiculous comment. Do you really believe there is 'little point' putting legislation in place in an attempt to prevent an estimated 38,000 boys being circumcised every year?
It's akin to saying "we shouldn't bother trying to tackle knife attacks, whilst gun crime still exists".
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I have not argued that it is. I've just said that as FGM has been illegal for 30+ years, yet we haven't tackled the problem at all, there seems little point in bothering to outlaw circumcision. When we've done something about FGM, then it might be worth addressing.
Maybe we just need a new tactic then? How about making all mutilation illegal instead of making distinctions?You seem to be saying that the best way to solve a problem is to keep doing what we've been trying for 30 years without success.
DurianIceCream said:
WinstonWolf said:
When everyone is telling you you're an idiot you should consider the fact that you're probably an idiot.
Even more so when many of the people calling you an idiot usually disagree.
No one is anti circumcision, they're against carrying it out on someone who is non-consenting.
Hmm, lets see:Even more so when many of the people calling you an idiot usually disagree.
No one is anti circumcision, they're against carrying it out on someone who is non-consenting.
- That I am talking about circumcision for reasons other than immediate medical need, I have stated multiple times. Therefore you have decided to get outraged first, read later.
- Your cohorts on this thread are very loose on any facts and the favoured website link appears to be anti-circumcision propaganda websites. OTOH I prefer to link to the WHO, American Pediatric Society and medical journals.
- Several people on this thread are unopposed to circumcision, but you have ignored that; one of those has worked in combatting FGM, which I doubt any of your cohorts have
- There is no evidence of people who have been circumcised being unhappy about it in any significant number
- Circumcision is legal everywhere and widely practiced; Germany flirted with restricting it in 2012, but didn't
You really should do better. I can see from your posts that you aren't thick, unlike a few others on this thread, but you are putting your circumcision rage ahead of all else.
Moonhawk said:
What a ridiculous comment.
Do you really believe there is 'little point' putting legislation in place in an attempt to prevent an estimated 38,000 boys being circumcised every year?
It's akin to saying "we shouldn't bother trying to tackle knife attacks, whilst gun crime still exists".
Well there are a lot more knife attacks than gun attacks. People die from knife attacks in greater numbers than gun attacks. 16 just this year in London alone according to this weeks news. Do you really believe there is 'little point' putting legislation in place in an attempt to prevent an estimated 38,000 boys being circumcised every year?
It's akin to saying "we shouldn't bother trying to tackle knife attacks, whilst gun crime still exists".
Since knife vs gun attacks is a poor analogy, as an alternate analogy I'll try to think of something very common but also completely harmless for us to tackle: how about clueless people on the internet.
- / - / -
I'll get into the journal links (the ones posted after I criticised 'evidence' from a fake replacement foreskin vendor; not atypical of the stuff posted on this thread so far) next week. I'm disinclined to spend my Sunday on it.
alock said:
Maybe we just need a new tactic then? How about making all mutilation illegal instead of making distinctions?
You seem to be saying that the best way to solve a problem is to keep doing what we've been trying for 30 years without success.
So you are proposing to divert what pathetically small resources are allocated to FGM, which causes serious harm, to circumcision? And you expect anything to happen?You seem to be saying that the best way to solve a problem is to keep doing what we've been trying for 30 years without success.
Welcome to the real world, where one line proposals don't solve problems which don't exist to start with.
steveatesh said:
The reduction in sexual pleasure does not appear to have been explored much as regards this procedure, officially or otherwise.
I agree.In FGM, where there is evidence that this is done deliberately to reduce sexual pleasure, one wonders if there is a link to the original motivations to perform this mutilation? Certainly removing 20,000 + nerve endings might suggest there is.
DurianIceCream said:
Well there are a lot more knife attacks than gun attacks. People die from knife attacks in greater numbers than gun attacks. 16 just this year in London alone according to this weeks news.
Since knife vs gun attacks is a poor analogy, as an alternate analogy I'll try to think of something very common but also completely harmless for us to tackle: how about clueless people on the internet.
- / - / -
I'll get into the journal links (the ones posted after I criticised 'evidence' from a fake replacement foreskin vendor; not atypical of the stuff posted on this thread so far) next week. I'm disinclined to spend my Sunday on it.
Here are some cheeky chappies enjoying the "no disadvantages" you speak so highly of.Since knife vs gun attacks is a poor analogy, as an alternate analogy I'll try to think of something very common but also completely harmless for us to tackle: how about clueless people on the internet.
- / - / -
I'll get into the journal links (the ones posted after I criticised 'evidence' from a fake replacement foreskin vendor; not atypical of the stuff posted on this thread so far) next week. I'm disinclined to spend my Sunday on it.
Some victims of circumcision are known by name. They are:
Julius Katzenstein: 8-days-old, bled to death after circumcision, 14 December 1856, New York, NY, USA.
Myer Jacob Levy: 8-days-old, bled to death after circumcision, 18 April 1858, New York, NY, USA.
Aleck, Baby Boy: Died June 10, 1910, Island County, Washington, USA.
Michael Julian Baldwin: infant boy, 4-days-old, hemorrhage after circumcision. 21 August 1927, Monroe County, Indiana, USA.
Baby boy Lebeau, death by circumcision, April 1942, Quebec, Canada.
Roland Albert McCarty: infant boy. Death by infection of circumcision wound. Died 1932, Jacksonville, Florida, USA.
"J.B.": Died December 1942, Evanston, Illinois, USA.
Bruce Wechsler: infant boy, Staph infection following circumcision. 1957, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.
Chino Burrell: 7-months-old, death by circumcision, 9 June 1974, Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Christopher Dolezal: Died November 1982, Des Moines, IA, USA.
Steven Christopher Chacon: Died November 1986, San Francisco, CA, USA.
Boma Oruitemeka: Death by circumcision, severe hemorrhage. 1990, London, England, UK.
Raju Miah: Death by circumcision. July 1991, Birmingham, England, United Kingdom.
Allen A. Ervin: Died July 8, 1992, Spartanburg, SC
Demetrius Manker: Died June 23, 1993, Carol City, Dade County, Florida, USA.17
Jeremie Johnson: Died July 18, 1995, Houston, TX, USA.19
Dustin Evans: Died October 1998, Cleveland, OH, USA.
Ryleigh Roman Bryan McWillis: Died August 22, 2002, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada35
Zola Mjamba: Died November 19, 2002, Umtata, South Africa
Sifiso Kobo: Died November 21, 2002, Umtata, South Africa
Nui Jia Yuan, 4-years-old. Death by asphyxia following circumcision. March 26, 2003, Singapore.
Callis Osaghae: Monday, August 18, 2003, Regional Hospital, Waterford, Ireland.26
Bennett Ntazina, adolescent boy. Death by circumcision. December 2003, Jan Kempdorp, South Africa.
Thamsanqa Mnyaka, 19, of Whittlesea, South Africa: Died Friday, 12 December 2003.
Myolisi Mayekiso, 18, also of Whittlesea, South Africa: Died Friday, 12 December 2003.
Andile Masabalala, 21, of Tsomo, South Africa: Died Monday, 15 December 2003.
Sabelo Marotya, 17, at Mdantsane, South Africa: Died Sunday, July 4, 2004.
Infant twin (by herpes virus, circumcised by Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer who had herpes and performed metziza by mouth [sucking the blood] on baby's penis) New York, New York, USA, October, 2004.
Dontsa Lwane, 19 (by suicide after botched circumcision of Dec 11, 2004) Gqebenya, Lady Frere, South Africa, January 8, 2005.
Wandile Lwane, 21 (Dontsa's brother, by suicide after learning of Dontasa's death) Ezibeleni, Queenstown, South Africa, January 9, 2005
Muyoddin Khan, 5, Indrapur, Nepal, February 10, 2005.
Abou Quir, infant boy, Alexandria, Egypt, February 15, 2005.
Jacob Christian Holliday. Circumcision damaged already-defective heart, requiring heart transplant at age two. Death resulted from cancer caused by immuno-suppresant drugs and resultant cancer at age 4, 20 October 2005, Orlando, Florida, USA.
Patrick Hoho, 58 (hacked to death by Hoho's circumcision victim), Port Elizabeth, South Africa, July 3, 2006.
Sello Ntsie, 18 (beaten to death at a circumcision "initiation school" before he could be circumcised), Zuurbekom, near Westonaria, South Africa, July 5, 2006.
Siyabonga Radebe, 14 (beaten to death at a circumcision "initiation school" before he could be circumcised), Zuurbekom, near Westonaria, South Africa, July 5, 2006.
Nkhiphitheni Nehelula, 9, Guyuni-Dzumbama village near Mutale, Limpopo, South Africa, July 8 or 9, 2006.
Xola Mbuqe, 18, Nelson Mandela Academic Hospital, Mthatha, Eastern Cape, South Africa, November 26, 2006.
Lunga Nocanda, 18, Paarl, Western Cape, South Africa, December 18, 2006.
Infant boy. Death by bleeding following circumcision in Creswell, Oregon,February 2007, Sacred Heart Hospital, Eugene, Oregon, USA.
Amitai Moshe, 2 weeks, after a ritual circumcision at Golders Green Synagogue, London. February 9, 2007.
Celian Noumbiwe, boy, nine weeks, death by circumcision, bled to death, 22 February 2007, Wexham Park Hospital, Slough, Berkshire, United Kingdom.
Kulideep Kumar Vishnubhai Patel, 10-year-old boy, death by circumcision, 18 November 2007, Unjha, Gujarat, India,
Infant boy, 18-days-old, death by circumcision, 18 November 2007, Pilar District, Tarragona, Nigeria.
18-year-old male, death by circumcision, November 2007, Gxulu Village, Umtata, South Africa.
Obosee Prince Aseh, boy, 2-months, death by circumcision, haemorrhage, 5 June 2008, Treviso, Italy.
Gino Erojo, 11-years-old. Death by infection following circumcision, 3 August 2008, Panciao, Manjyod, Negroes Oriental, Philippines.
Beasley Allen Terrebonne, age 48, death by suicide after botched circumcision and resulting depression. 23 December 2008, Thibodaux, Louisiana, USA.
Eric Keefe, 6-week-old infant boy, death by blood loss following circumcision, 14 July 2008, Indian Health Service Hospital, Rosebud, South Dakota, USA.
Yogama Boya, 18-year-old male, death by circumcision, July 2008, Qumbu area of Transkei, South Africa.
Johnson Killed. Age 2 years and 7 months. death by circumcision. 22 July 2008, Bari, Italy.
Jayvas Carson, full-term baby, born 15 Novmber 2008. Circumcised 28 November 2008 by Dr. Rachel Carson of Coeur d'Alene Pediatics. Died at Sacred Heart Children's Hospital, Spokane, Washington, 1 January 2009 after long series of complications that started with the loss of blood due to his non-therapeutic circumcision.
Bradley Dorcius, boy, 7-months-old. Death by circumcision, October 2009, SUNY Downstate Hospital. Brooklyn, New York, USA.
Kaan Otuk, boy, one-month-old. Death by circumcision anaesthesia overdose, 31 October 2009, Çukurova State Hospital, Adana, Turkey.
Sonke Foca, male, 19-years-old. Death by dehydration following circumcision, 11 November 2009, Butterworth, Transkei, Eastern Cape Province, South Africa.
Goodluck Caubergs, Baby. Bled to death after circumcision. Oldham, England, April 17, 2010.
Saijad Hossain Mimu, 6-years-old. Death by lidocaine anaesthetic overdose, 25 September 2010, Safapur, Amirbad Union,Sonagazi Upazila, Feni District in the Division of Chittagong, Bangladesh.
Joshua Haskins, 7-weeks old. Died 19 hours after having circumcision followed by prolonged bleeding, despite having congenital heart defect and being in intensive care. October 6, 2010, Indianapolis, Indiana, USA.
Jaamal Coleson, Jr., toddler, of Brooklyn, New York. Died at Beth Israel Medical Center, Manhattan, New York City after a circumcision on Tuesday, May 3, 2011.50
James Connor, infant, seven pounds eight ounces, 21 inches long. Born at Pittsburgh, Friday, November 25, 2011. Died Saturday night, November 26, 2011. Death by bleeding after circumcision.
Anonymous Jewish infant, two weeks old. Death from Herpes infection, Maimonides Hospital, Brookyn, New York, September 28, 2011.51
Angelo Ofori-Minhah, age 28-days, of Queen's Park, Northamptonshire, England, died on February 17, 2012 after being circumcised by Rabbi Mordehai Cohen on February 15, 2012. The cause of death was bleeding, exsanguination, and heart failure, according to the medical report. The infant was reported to have lost three-quarters of his total blood volume.
Two boys, Arif, age 4 and Azhar, age 3,in Rakasipet, Bodhan, Andhra Pradesh India. The boys died on Monday, April 30, 2012 after a circumcision a few days before by a rural medical practitioner at Masjid Colony in the Rakasipet area due to uncontrolled "overbleeding".
Infant boy, age two-weeks. Circumcised Sunday, 6 May 2012 in a doctor's office on the east side of Oslo, Norway. Died of complications Tuesday, 8 May 2012.
Braden Tyler Frazier. Born February 25, 2013 at Lodi, California. Died March 8, 2013 at Sacramento. Circumcised on the ninth day of life at Sacramento, California. Died on the eleventh day of life of hemorrhage and convulsions, secondary to circumcision.
Gugeluthu Molakapa, age 4, brain dead after a circumcision at Germiston Hospital, Johannesburg, South Africa, August 2013.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I have not argued that it is. I've just said that as FGM has been illegal for 30+ years, yet we haven't tackled the problem at all, there seems little point in bothering to outlaw circumcision. When we've done something about FGM, then it might be worth addressing.
Presumably you were also against passing the "revenge porn" legislature too?I mean, we haven't completely eradicated the more serious forms of sexual crimes, seems little point bothering to outlaw revenge porn. When we've eradicated rape, sexual assault and the like, then it might be worth addressing.
DurianIceCream said:
Well there are a lot more knife attacks than gun attacks. People die from knife attacks in greater numbers than gun attacks. 16 just this year in London alone according to this weeks news.
I think you are deliberately missing the point - but ok, let's play that game shall we. How about switching the scenarios round then. Should we ignore gun crime until knife crime has been eradicated?
Also - as for the numbers game - in the UK, there are an estimated 38,000 cases of male circumcision every year.
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 25th February 11:33
Troubleatmill said:
Here are some cheeky chappies enjoying the "no disadvantages" you speak so highly of.
Some victims of circumcision are known by name. They are:
(List off around 100 deceased people follows)
What a disingenuous post seeking to capitalise on the deaths of others, to seek to suit your own propaganda Some victims of circumcision are known by name. They are:
(List off around 100 deceased people follows)
You list contains names from those who died in the mid-19th century, before even antibiotics were invented. It contains people from tribal areas in South Africa with exceptionally poor health care. It contains adult men. It contains people who have died from unrelated diseases such as cancer. It contains deaths in the UK which are recent and well documented and where the coroner has found the death is unrelated to any circumcision.
You also failed to reference the source, which was easily Google-able. The source is an anti-circumcision propaganda website and even that biased website makes the disclaimer that these deaths haven't been categorised by the medical profession as being due to circumcision.
Edited by DurianIceCream on Sunday 25th February 12:34
. said:
James Connor, infant, seven pounds eight ounces, 21 inches long. Born at Pittsburgh, Friday, November 25, 2011. Died Saturday night, November 26, 2011. Death by bleeding after circumcision.
Less than 24 hours after being born in a US hospital in the 21st century, whisked away to have his penis mutilated and then dying shortly thereafter.And Durian, Twig and Surveyor think this should be allowed to continue.
Edited by Dromedary66 on Sunday 25th February 12:48
Dromedary66 said:
Less than 24 hours after being born in a US hospital in the 21st century, whisked away to have his penis mutilated and then dying shortly thereafter.
And Durian, Twig and Surveyor think this should be allowed to continue.
Parents, left with a dead child; that is all that is known. Your link is from a propaganda website. I have Googled that particular death and I can find no coroners report which supports circumcision as the cause of death. And Durian, Twig and Surveyor think this should be allowed to continue.
Edited by Dromedary66 on Sunday 25th February 12:48
I can find no CDC (Centres for Disease Control, US) data for circumcision deaths post 2010. However in 2010, over half US newborn males were circumcised and the number of deaths attributable to circumcision was zero.
In 2014, the CDC released a report recommending neo natal circumcision as a preventive health measure.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC54782...
I am not going to comment further in this thread on posts from fake news propaganda websites. If you want a comment, find a reputable source.
Moonhawk said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I have not argued that it is. I've just said that as FGM has been illegal for 30+ years, yet we haven't tackled the problem at all, there seems little point in bothering to outlaw circumcision. When we've done something about FGM, then it might be worth addressing.
What a ridiculous comment. Do you really believe there is 'little point' putting legislation in place in an attempt to prevent an estimated 38,000 boys being circumcised every year?
It's akin to saying "we shouldn't bother trying to tackle knife attacks, whilst gun crime still exists".
amusingduck said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I have not argued that it is. I've just said that as FGM has been illegal for 30+ years, yet we haven't tackled the problem at all, there seems little point in bothering to outlaw circumcision. When we've done something about FGM, then it might be worth addressing.
Presumably you were also against passing the "revenge porn" legislature too?I mean, we haven't completely eradicated the more serious forms of sexual crimes, seems little point bothering to outlaw revenge porn. When we've eradicated rape, sexual assault and the like, then it might be worth addressing.
Is there an echo in here?
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