Dear University lecturers - get back to work

[Toaster]

sidicks said:

If I remember correctly, you had previously planned to invest in Carillion - was this for the ‘overly generous’ dividends or some form of charitable enterprise to help fill their ‘pension black hole’?

Its not about people owning dividends or being payed for those dividends. Its about paying appropriate dividends and keeping the pension payments going the latter being part of the employees deferred pay. Only after all costs including, taxes and pensions should the companies then pay a dividend.

Its about time companies went for short and long term planning and sustainability rather than the perpetual global domination and growth. Muse did quite a good video https://youtu.be/DB6IpUrtipI and if you don't want to watch try the lyrics https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/muse/animals.html

[sidicks]

Toaster said:

Its not about people owning dividends or being payed for those dividends. Its about paying appropriate dividends and keeping the pension payments going the latter being part of the employees deferred pay. Only after all costs including, taxes and pensions should the companies then pay a dividend.

Its about time companies went for short and long term planning and sustainability rather than the perpetual global domination and growth.

I don’t think you understand how business (or pension funds) work. Long-term planning and sustainability isn’t about building up massive pension liabilities.

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 17:28

[Toaster]

sidicks said:

I don’t think you understand how business (or pension funds) work. Long-term planning and sustainability isn’t about building up massive pension liabilities.

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 17:28

I think you hold massive assumptions matey and do not respect others views, no I am not a financial expert I employ people who are. My guess is you may view pensions like this: "Carillion’s former finance director considered putting cash into the firm’s pension deficit a “waste of money”, according to the minutes of a meeting written by the pension scheme trustees" https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/22/m...

But lets get back to the topic University lectures should not have their pension benefits changed.

[sidicks]

Toaster said:

I think you hold massive assumptions matey and do not respect others views, no I am not a financial expert I employ people who are.

I don’t respect those who comment on things they don’t understand.

Perhaps you should ask your employees what to post on this topic, ‘matey’?!

Out of interest, what DB pensions do you pay to these employees?

Toaster said:

My guess is you may view pensions like this: "Carillion’s former finance director considered putting cash into the firm’s pension deficit a “waste of money”, according to the minutes of a meeting written by the pension scheme trustees" https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/22/m...

That’s your trouble - too much guessing, not enough knowledge.

toaster said:

But lets get back to the topic University lectures should not have their pension benefits changed.

Why not? Why should they be immune to demographic and economic changes that affect the rest of the population?

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 18:57

[Toaster]

toaster said:

But lets get back to the topic University lectures should not have their pension benefits changed.

Why not? Why should they be immune to demographic and economic changes that affect the rest of the population?

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 18:57

Actually thats quite interesting because when you see the money that universities are pouring in to swanky new buildings and the 'top team' having rather large pay rises, of course something has to give.....pensions maybe?

[sidicks]

Toaster said:

Actually thats quite interesting because when you see the money that universities are pouring in to swanky new buildings and the 'top team' having rather large pay rises, of course something has to give.....pensions maybe?

1. Where is the money coming from?
2. How does that justify these pensions?

You didn’t answer about the DB scheme you run for your employees - why not?!

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 20:26

[jjlynn27]

sidicks said:

1. Where is the money coming from?
2. How does that justify these pensions?

Do you have to reduce every single thread to whine about public sector pensions? Every single time, the same whine.

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

Do you have to reduce every single thread to whine about public sector pensions? Every single time, the same whine.

This is a thread about pensions. HTH

Do you have to reduce every thread to a personal argument rather than address the subject under discussion?

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 20:29

[jjlynn27]

sidicks said:

jjlynn27 said:

Do you have to reduce every single thread to whine about public sector pensions? Every single time, the same whine.

This is a thread about pensions. HTH

Do you have to reduce every thread to a personal argument rather than address the subject under discussion?

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 20:29

To you every single thread is about public sector pensions.

From NHS one

sidicks said:

The cost of employment within the NHS is entirely relevant to a thread about the NHS being ‘broken’. Pensions are a significant part of that issue - you know, those pensions that you don’t appear to understand very well.

Every single thread.

There is nothing personal in mocking people for posting silly things.

HTH.

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

Every single thread.

There is nothing personal in mocking people for posting silly things.

HTH.

Hence the mocking you get on numerous threads.

Now off you pop to abuse other people on some other thread.

[Toaster]

sidicks said:

1. Where is the money coming from?
2. How does that justify these pensions?

You didn’t answer about the DB scheme you run for your employees - why not?!

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 20:26

1. Students

2. for me its a moral and ethical contract between an employer and employee, doesn't matter how long or short a person works for a company overall an individual will work until thier mid 60's after a life time of work it is not unreasonable for an employee to receive a pension that helps give them a reasonable life in retirement. The workers have helped create the wealth they should benefit from it too.

Did I say DB or DC?

[sidicks]

Toaster said:

1. Students

Where do they get their money from?

Toaster said:

2. for me its a moral and ethical contract between an employer and employee, doesn't matter how long or short a person works for a company overall an individual will work until thier mid 60's after a life time of work it is not unreasonable for an employee to receive a pension that helps give them a reasonable life in retirement. The workers have helped create the wealth they should benefit from it too.

Define 'a reasonable life'. What we currently offer is a vast pension, massively more generous than can be afford by the rest of the population. What is being proposed is still an extremely significant pension contribution, multiples of the standard amount obtainable in the private sector.

Toaster said:

Did I say DB or DC?

No you didn't. Which is it and what is your employer contribution?

[jjlynn27]

sidicks said:

jjlynn27 said:

Every single thread.

There is nothing personal in mocking people for posting silly things.

HTH.

Hence the mocking you get on numerous threads.

Now off you pop to abuse other people on some other thread.

Typical sidicks little dance, when presented with evidence, does little sidicks deflection dance.

Predictable if nothing else. Cute.

Now, why the obsession with public sector pensions?

[Big Al.]

jjlynn27 said:

sidicks said:

jjlynn27 said:

Every single thread.

There is nothing personal in mocking people for posting silly things.

HTH.

Hence the mocking you get on numerous threads.

Now off you pop to abuse other people on some other thread.

Typical sidicks little dance, when presented with evidence, does little sidicks deflection dance.

Predictable if nothing else. Cute.

Now, why the obsession with public sector pensions?

Enough you two or you'll have to find another thread to post on!

[sidicks]

Big Al. said:

Enough you two or you'll have to find another thread to post on!

What have I done? I'm the one discussing the topic. He's the one determined to start an argument, as always!

[911newbie]

Countdown said:

sidicks said:

911newbie said:

Has anyone mentioned the university pension scheme USS is not a public pension ? It is a private pension paid for out of contributions from universities and their workers.
This fact alone might cause Sidicks and Co some tumescence problems. Sorry tax payers are not paying for my pension.
(My employer, a university, does take some money from the state but no where near 100% of income. We are more contractors supplying a service into the state than public sector. I have annual income targets which are multiples of my salary.

You seem very confused with where the money comes from. Never mind.

Where does the money for your pension come from? Is it by any chance people who pay tax?

Directly, the money comes from my university.

The university gets most of its income from the Student Loans Company, which is underwritten by the state but recevies its income from graduates.
So in that sense most of my employer's money comes from customers. If they don't wnat to buy our services we don't get any money.

Some of the rest of the university's income does come from government, such as in research contracts. However these are won competitively, so this is not direct funding such as hospitals receive for example, more a contract won in as would a construction company bidding to build a new road for example. Many private companies win competitive contracts in this way, and that doesn't make them public sector nor their pensions state pensions.

Some of our money comes direct from companies, which is again a competitve process which we win (or not) vs other organisations.

So, no I'm not really confused about where the money comes from in fact, nor is my employer really in the public sector.
To reiterate - If our customers don't want to buy services from us, or we don't win competitions for funding, then we go broke and I'm unemployed.

Money for my pension - my contributions from my salary, and contributions from my employer. The scheme is not funded like the teacher's scheme, ie directly from taxation.
I repeat - most of my employer's money does not come from government, mostly from customers and won in competitions.

The level of bile and fear in your postings is amazing.

Would you really want to live in a country without any universities ?
Do you think we do nothing of any value ?
If so, no other country in the world agrees with you. Many countries are desperately trying to increase the number of universities they have, and most of these directly fund their universities - GASP !!!

Why do you hate people who don't share your views ?

[sidicks]

911newbie said:

Directly, the money comes from my university.

The university gets most of its income from the Student Loans Company, which is underwritten by the state but recevies its income from graduates.
So in that sense most of my employer's money comes from customers. If they don't wnat to buy our services we don't get any money.

And what proportion of that gets repaid back to the state?
And your services are a monopoly, so hardly the free market competition you are trying to portray.

911newbie said:

Some of the rest of the university's income does come from government, such as in research contracts. However these are won competitively, so this is not direct funding such as hospitals receive for example, more a contract won in as would a construction company bidding to build a new road for example. Many private companies win competitive contracts in this way, and that doesn't make them public sector nor their pensions state pensions.

Some of our money comes direct from companies, which is again a competitve process which we win (or not) vs other organisations.

So, no I'm not really confused about where the money comes from in fact, nor is my employer really in the public sector.
To reiterate - If our customers don't want to buy services from us, or we don't win competitions for funding, then we go broke and I'm unemployed.

Money for my pension - my contributions from my salary, and contributions from my employer. The scheme is not funded like the teacher's scheme, ie directly from taxation.
I repeat - most of my employer's money does not come from government, mostly from customers and won in competitions.

Your employer is telling you that they can't afford your DB pension. HTH.

911newbie said:

The level of bile and fear in your postings is amazing.

The level of your lack of understanding about pensions is amazing.

911newbie said:

Would you really want to live in a country without any universities ?

Straw man nonsense.

911newbie said:

Do you think we do nothing of any value ?

Straw man nonsense.

911newbie said:

If so, no other country in the world agrees with you. Many countries are desperately trying to increase the number of universities they have, and most of these directly fund their universities - GASP !!!

Where did i say I was against funding universities?

911newbie said:

Why do you hate people who don't share your views ?

More straw man nonsense.

[911newbie]

sidicks said:

Toaster said:

Actually thats quite interesting because when you see the money that universities are pouring in to swanky new buildings and the 'top team' having rather large pay rises, of course something has to give.....pensions maybe?

1. Where is the money coming from?
2. How does that justify these pensions?

You didn’t answer about the DB scheme you run for your employees - why not?!

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 20:26

You've had some good answers about where the money comes from. I don't know why you don't believe these answers.
Why not write to your nearest university and ask them ? I'm sure they will be able to give a clear answer with numbers etc.

Pensions are part of the remuneration package. They are subject to negotiation between employer and employee, which is what is happening right now.

You seem to think there is a moral problem with having a pension from a university ... yes ? Or at least you clearly don't like the idea of me having a pension.
Why ?

My employer only takes a small fraction of its income from the state. Ergo my pension is not really funded by your taxes.

Imagine you worked for a company like G4S or Balfour Beatty. They are private sector right ? I guarentee these companies receive more money from the UK state than my university does.

Are the people working for them allowed to have pensions in your world ?

Do these people now go on to your hate list, and do you want them to live in poverty in their retirement for some kind of henous moral sin ?

[sidicks]

911newbie said:

You've had some good answers about where the money comes from. I don't know why you don't believe these answers.
Why not write to your nearest university and ask them ? I'm sure they will be able to give a clear answer with numbers etc.

Pensions are part of the remuneration package. They are subject to negotiation between employer and employee, which is what is happening right now.

And lecturers appear not to understand the issues around pensions and seek to make false claims on here, which I have responded to.

911newbie said:

You seem to think there is a moral problem with having a pension from a university ... yes ? Or at least you clearly don't like the idea of me having a pension.
Why ?

I've said no such thing. More straw man nonsense. How dull.

911newbie said:

My employer only takes a small fraction of its income from the state. Ergo my pension is not really funded by your taxes.

Imagine you worked for a company like G4S or Balfour Beatty. They are private sector right ? I guarentee these companies receive more money from the UK state than my university does.

Are the people working for them allowed to have pensions in your world ?

Where have I said people aren't allowed pensions?

Maybe you don't understand that no-one is proposing that you shouldn't have a pension. Is that where your misunderstanding lies?

911newbie said:

Do these people now go on to your hate list, and do you want them to live in poverty in their retirement for some kind of henous moral sin ?

I've said no such thing. Straw man nonsense and ignorant emotive rhetoric in one sentence? Well done.

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 21st March 21:38

[911newbie]

lauda said:

Toaster said:

Most companies are slaves to the stock exchange and 'shareholder value' they wish to pay a shareholder who has contributed zip to the companies wealth

Have a read of that sentence back to yourself. You do realise that without the shareholders, there is no company?

There is a good point in here however.

UK public listed companies are very reactive to shareholders' short term concerns. In other countries, Japan being a most extreme example, shareholders generally seek much longer term investments with companies. They tend to appreciate longer term thinking from companies than in the UK.
German manufacturers, as an example, can plan over much longer periods and invest for returns in 5 - 10 years. This would put off much of the UK investor sector.

Toaster makes a very good point which you dismiss unfairly.