Organ Transplant Bill
Discussion
Long Drax said:
Hi R W, I am sorry, I'm still not sure what your opinion is. Do you believe people who have chosen not to donate blood should be allowed to receive blood from those who have chosen to donate?
How many people have actively chosen never to give blood though - as opposed to being open to the idea but just not getting round to it. How many would donate blood in an emergency situation or in a crisis?By opting out of organ donation - you are essentially saying "I won't ever donate my organs under any circumstances".
The two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable.
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 25th February 06:44
Oakey said:
Like those examples earlier in the thread were 'dead'? Until it turned out they weren't. As Jonesy has said, that's where the controversy lies.
...and earlier in the thread I noted that these were all examples which were caught in time, meaning no harm was done.Have you yet managed to find any published examples of people wrongfully killed or seriously harmed in such situations?
Oakey said:
What's your definition of dead?
For some organ donating the definition of dead is to be brain stem dead, which means there is no brain activity, but the body may still be being kept alive. Although some donation can be done after the body has completely shut down.If you are brain stem dead, you cannot give consent for donation , so currently the hope is that you either carry a donor card or your next of kin consents. So the opt out system will mean that in the absence of a recorded opt out agreement, transplant teams will have a better starting point when approaching the Nok, who may be sat there mourning / hoping for a miracle.
Even in countries which implement an opt scheme nok are still approached and given final say and in most countries there has been higher rates of donation, although Sweden does buck the trend, as despite being opt out for 10 years, they still have low donation rates.
schmunk said:
...and earlier in the thread I noted that these were all examples which were caught in time, meaning no harm was done.
Have you yet managed to find any published examples of people wrongfully killed or seriously harmed in such situations?
How would they know? If they succeeded in removing their organs the patient is most definitely dead now!Have you yet managed to find any published examples of people wrongfully killed or seriously harmed in such situations?
But the one in Germany may have died as a result;
Documents are said to state the operation was terminated due to the patient suffering cardiovascular failure.
But investigators are now tasked with finding out if the patient's heart stopped by chance, or as a result of doctors changing oxygen levels when they discovered he may not be brain dead.
Moonhawk said:
Long Drax said:
Hi R W, I am sorry, I'm still not sure what your opinion is. Do you believe people who have chosen not to donate blood should be allowed to receive blood from those who have chosen to donate?
How many people have actively chosen never to give blood though - as opposed to being open to the idea but just not getting round to it. How many would donate blood in an emergency situation or in a crisis?By opting out of organ donation - you are essentially saying "I won't ever donate my organs under any circumstances".
The two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable.
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 25th February 06:44
Long Drax said:
Hi R W, I am sorry, I'm still not sure what your opinion is. Do you believe people who have chosen not to donate blood should be allowed to receive blood from those who have chosen to donate?
The twp situations aren't really the same. There are more potential hurdles to giving blood - as a regular donor I have found this. I haven't been able to donate anywhere near as frequently as I could due to the "rules" (having been in countries that precluded donation for a period of time), "health" (having a temporary condition that precluded it) and simple "logistics" (no available slots).These don't all apply to organ donation.
Assuming we are genuinely short on blood donors, I do think more people need to be giving blood. And being blunt, for the rarer blood types I wouldn't be against a heavier "guilt trip" to prompt people doing so. But it's not comparable to organ donation.
Rovinghawk said:
I carried an organ donor card for years.
I am now opting out because I refuse to have anybody make decisions like that for me. Tough on those that would otherwise benefit but how dare the authorities try to presume what I want to do based on their wishes rather than mine.
All they had to do was ask people nicely rather than dictate, but they're too arrogant for that.
You sound like an old friend of mine who refused to wear seat belts after the law came in you had to wear them. He previously wore them.I am now opting out because I refuse to have anybody make decisions like that for me. Tough on those that would otherwise benefit but how dare the authorities try to presume what I want to do based on their wishes rather than mine.
All they had to do was ask people nicely rather than dictate, but they're too arrogant for that.
He was an idiot.
Rovinghawk said:
Murph7355 said:
And being blunt, for the rarer blood types I wouldn't be against a heavier "guilt trip" to prompt people doing so.
How about less stick & more carrot? Some people don't like being coerced but my accede to being asked nicely.Anyway, the vast majority in countries that have the "opt-out" system don't seem too bothered since they go along with it.
Rovinghawk said:
Murph7355 said:
And being blunt, for the rarer blood types I wouldn't be against a heavier "guilt trip" to prompt people doing so.
How about less stick & more carrot? Some people don't like being coerced but my accede to being asked nicely.It is the most common groups that need the high volume supply.
Moonhawk said:
Long Drax said:
Hi R W, I am sorry, I'm still not sure what your opinion is. Do you believe people who have chosen not to donate blood should be allowed to receive blood from those who have chosen to donate?
How many people have actively chosen never to give blood though - as opposed to being open to the idea but just not getting round to it. How many would donate blood in an emergency situation or in a crisis?Being open to the idea but not bothering to make the time and effort to do it is a choice those people have have made. It is always an emergency situation/crisis when a patient requires donated blood.
By opting out of organ donation - you are essentially saying "I won't ever donate my organs under any circumstances".
Who is to say they may not change their mind at a future date and decide they want to opt-in and donate their organs when they die? Will this be outlawed?
The two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable.
In my opinion the distinctions are not as remote as you aver.
Rovinghawk said:
How about less stick & more carrot? Some people don't like being coerced but my accede to being asked nicely.
They've been asking nicely and the numbers aren't high, most likely because people are apathetic and don't bother to fill out the forms.Surely it's better that people don't die through apathy, rather than do?
(Excluding the belligerent and/or selfish in the population of course).
PurpleMoonlight said:
Perhaps we should repeal the seat belt laws, there might be more organs to harvest as a result.
Why not just run people over on purpose? You could probably save three for every one you kill. That would really improve the statistics.A stupid analogy, but I didn't start that.
grumbledoak said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Perhaps we should repeal the seat belt laws, there might be more organs to harvest as a result.
Why not just run people over on purpose? You could probably save three for every one you kill. That would really improve the statistics.A stupid analogy, but I didn't start that.
Should start harvesting organs from prisoners instead. I can imagine the PSA now
BURGLAR BEWARE
If you go down the chimney, we're coming for your kidneys
Rovinghawk said:
How about less stick & more carrot? Some people don't like being coerced but my accede to being asked nicely.
Not only will you be depriving someone you don't know from possible lifesaving treatment you might also deprive your family from the satisfaction that you did so.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45056780
Randy Winkman said:
Not only will you be depriving someone you don't know from possible lifesaving treatment you might also deprive your family from the satisfaction that you did so.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45056780
They can ask me nicely & I might do it. When they try to coerce me I'll rebel. Simple passive aggression.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45056780
Rovinghawk said:
Randy Winkman said:
Not only will you be depriving someone you don't know from possible lifesaving treatment you might also deprive your family from the satisfaction that you did so.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45056780
They can ask me nicely & I might do it. When they try to coerce me I'll rebel. Simple passive aggression.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45056780
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