How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 3)
Discussion
Gloria Slap said:
In terms of expertise, which area does this expert opine on that is relevant to Brexit?Still, more people are likely to listen to what he has to say than Blair or Obama I imagine. Shame Remain didn't haul him out on the circuit pre the vote.
If you're simply adding people who agree with you to your list, drop me you address and I'll send you some more crayons.
slow_poke said:
His concerns are legitimate to himself. He's a foreign national working in the UK as of right under FMoL. That'll change post Brexit.
He's got every right to speak out. He's directly impacted by the referendum result.
It doesn't change post Brexit for anyone here prior to the end of the transition period under the current agreed terms, should the UK and EU sign the deal.He's got every right to speak out. He's directly impacted by the referendum result.
Gloria Slap said:
"‘There is not one time in history where division creates success’"Tell that to the USA or any of the former British colonies.
Tell that to all the former Slaves in the USA who would still be slaves without the civil war.
Tell that to all the former member states of the USSR.
Another Berk to add to the list.
slow_poke said:
His concerns are legitimate to himself. He's a foreign national working in the UK as of right under FMoL. That'll change post Brexit.
He's got every right to speak out. He's directly impacted by the referendum result.
On top of what everyone else has noted, do you really think people like Klopp won't be given visas/the right to stay?He's got every right to speak out. He's directly impacted by the referendum result.
Of course he's allowed to state what he thinks. I'm just not sure what "adding him to the list" adds to anything.
Murph7355 said:
slow_poke said:
His concerns are legitimate to himself. He's a foreign national working in the UK as of right under FMoL. That'll change post Brexit.
He's got every right to speak out. He's directly impacted by the referendum result.
On top of what everyone else has noted, do you really think people like Klopp won't be given visas/the right to stay?He's got every right to speak out. He's directly impacted by the referendum result.
Of course he's allowed to state what he thinks. I'm just not sure what "adding him to the list" adds to anything.
The article contains a number of misconceptions, the most striking is that Brexit "makes no sense at all.”
I try (not always successfully) when thinking about a problem to try honestly to see things from the other person’s point of view and try to understand the person’s viewpoint. I don't do this due to from some kind of agreeableness trait - when I have tried psychometric tests I think I am on the 99% percentile in terms of lack of agreeableness.
But you have to try and understand all of the arguments as well as possible, not just the side you happen to agree with. And if your reasoning is that Brexit 'makes no sense at all', it shows you have spent very little time performing any kind of critical thinking about the alternate viewpoint.
"Add him to the list" is a dads army reference.
And right on cue many of you have. Like being a slave is it? And Jurgen's the Berk?
It is ironic that you claim to see arguments from others perspectives and then proceed to completely dismiss why it may make "no sense at all" from his point of view.
It is entirely valid point of view to see no sense in brexit, when assessing the various claims and arguments. You can claim there are upsides, but when considered against the matching downsides, they make no sense. It is a valid viewpoint whether looking at immigration or trade.
You can decide that the benefits of breaking away from free movement outweigh the downsides - but others may disagree.
This is where normally you might consult "experts" who might give a view one way of the other based on evidence and specialist knowledge.
There is a reason Gove decided to appeal to a certain demographic when rubbishing experts.
And right on cue many of you have. Like being a slave is it? And Jurgen's the Berk?
It is ironic that you claim to see arguments from others perspectives and then proceed to completely dismiss why it may make "no sense at all" from his point of view.
It is entirely valid point of view to see no sense in brexit, when assessing the various claims and arguments. You can claim there are upsides, but when considered against the matching downsides, they make no sense. It is a valid viewpoint whether looking at immigration or trade.
You can decide that the benefits of breaking away from free movement outweigh the downsides - but others may disagree.
This is where normally you might consult "experts" who might give a view one way of the other based on evidence and specialist knowledge.
There is a reason Gove decided to appeal to a certain demographic when rubbishing experts.
Gloria Slap said:
It is ironic that you claim to see arguments from others perspectives and then proceed to completely dismiss why it may make "no sense at all" from his point of view.
There is a logical fail with this sentence Gloria. There are quite clearly arguments which make sense on the Brexit side of the debate.For example, you might think that the EU, as a supranational organisation, is less democratic and therefore less able to deliver the will of the people than more regional or national government structures.
These kind of arguments are not usually matters of fact - they are matters of judgement. So you might think the above statement is mostly true, usually true, mostly untrue etc etc.
Therefore my point was if someone says 'none of these arguments make any sense at all', it shows someone who hasn't spent any time thinking about the topic in any detail.
gooner1 said:
Apparently experts were consulted to give their expert advice and experience
of leaving the EU.
To a man they replied, " f
ked if we know, no one's ever left before."
Not understanding something seems a talent shared by many who voted leave.of leaving the EU.
To a man they replied, " f
ked if we know, no one's ever left before."The EU rules have all been incorporated into members law via, treaty, directive and regulations.
So to find out the implications of brexit just requires looking at UK law.
Unfortunately, it seems the TM government missed out this step before serving Art 50 notice.
Mrr T said:
Not understanding something seems a talent shared by many who voted leave.
How many of those who voted Leave did you consult to form that view, and what was your methodology? Without this detail it's not possible to distinguish your post content from background noise.Mrr T said:
The EU rules have all been incorporated into members law via, treaty, directive and regulations.
So to find out the implications of brexit just requires looking at UK law.
Unfortunately, it seems the TM government missed out this step before serving Art 50 notice.
So to find out the implications of brexit just requires looking at UK law.
Unfortunately, it seems the TM government missed out this step before serving Art 50 notice.
Did you spot this and point it out to the relevant politicians when you were sitting around the table with them during such A50 discussions?
Confirmation would help, otherwise it's just more made-up stuff.
turbobloke said:
Mrr T said:
Not understanding something seems a talent shared by many who voted leave.
How many of those who voted Leave did you consult to form that view, and what was your methodology? Without this detail it's not possible to distinguish your post content from background noise. By the way how many who voted leave did you consult with?
turbobloke said:
Mrr T said:
The EU rules have all been incorporated into members law via, treaty, directive and regulations.
So to find out the implications of brexit just requires looking at UK law.
Unfortunately, it seems the TM government missed out this step before serving Art 50 notice.
So to find out the implications of brexit just requires looking at UK law.
Unfortunately, it seems the TM government missed out this step before serving Art 50 notice.
Did you spot this and point it out to the relevant politicians when you were sitting around the table with them during such A50 discussions?
Confirmation would help, otherwise it's just more made-up stuff.
Mrr T said:
gooner1 said:
Apparently experts were consulted to give their expert advice and experience
of leaving the EU.
To a man they replied, " fked if we know, no one's ever left before."
Not understanding something seems a talent shared by many who voted leave.of leaving the EU.
To a man they replied, " f
ked if we know, no one's ever left before."The EU rules have all been incorporated into members law via, treaty, directive and regulations.
So to find out the implications of brexit just requires looking at UK law.
Unfortunately, it seems the TM government missed out this step before serving Art 50 notice.
Deptford Draylons said:
Says the person who woke up on June 24th and said we needed to vote again, only to then forget he ever said such a thing. If you couldn't even remember that, how smart are you really ?
To be clear after the result I felt it would be a good idea to have a second referendum on the brexit deal. I then changed my mind when I realised this might affect the negotiating positions. I forgot this.
Some months later you trailed back though many pages to find my posts.
I find that odd.
Mrr T said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Says the person who woke up on June 24th and said we needed to vote again, only to then forget he ever said such a thing. If you couldn't even remember that, how smart are you really ?
To be clear after the result I felt it would be a good idea to have a second referendum on the brexit deal. I then changed my mind when I realised this might affect the negotiating positions. I forgot this.
Some months later you trailed back though many pages to find my posts.
I find that odd.
Fair game given your line in these threads, but it would be preferable to stay on-topic.
Whilst I am nominally a Leaver there have been a cpl of duff things said recently over JK’s comments.
I’m not entirely sure I’d class Revolutionary and Civil Wars as “success” stories - frankly just on point of principle!
And the understanding of Brexit making no sense. I was back in my office in NL the Monday after the vote and I spent the entire day answering a stream of baffled European colleagues all coming in to ask why on earth did the Brits vote out?!
Europeans on the whole very much do not regard Brexit as making any sense whatsoever and from their perspective I think it’s a perfectly viable position. Continental Europe has a VERY different historical, cultural and social inherent memory than the UK does. British idea of European history is basically Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt, Blenheim, Ramillies, Waterloo, Ypres, Somme, D-Day. And that’s it. European - well, isn’t that.
So yes, to a European and ESPECIALLY a Germanic mindset, Brexit does make absolutely no sense. I get that and I fully understand it, I just don’t happen to agree with it because of my context of Europe filtered through my British perspective. Equally I don’t expect Dutch, French or Germans to agree with me.
I’m not entirely sure I’d class Revolutionary and Civil Wars as “success” stories - frankly just on point of principle!
And the understanding of Brexit making no sense. I was back in my office in NL the Monday after the vote and I spent the entire day answering a stream of baffled European colleagues all coming in to ask why on earth did the Brits vote out?!
Europeans on the whole very much do not regard Brexit as making any sense whatsoever and from their perspective I think it’s a perfectly viable position. Continental Europe has a VERY different historical, cultural and social inherent memory than the UK does. British idea of European history is basically Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt, Blenheim, Ramillies, Waterloo, Ypres, Somme, D-Day. And that’s it. European - well, isn’t that.
So yes, to a European and ESPECIALLY a Germanic mindset, Brexit does make absolutely no sense. I get that and I fully understand it, I just don’t happen to agree with it because of my context of Europe filtered through my British perspective. Equally I don’t expect Dutch, French or Germans to agree with me.
Mrr T said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Says the person who woke up on June 24th and said we needed to vote again, only to then forget he ever said such a thing. If you couldn't even remember that, how smart are you really ?
To be clear after the result I felt it would be a good idea to have a second referendum on the brexit deal. I then changed my mind when I realised this might affect the negotiating positions. I forgot this.
Some months later you trailed back though many pages to find my posts.
I find that odd.
You are hear near daily calling everyone in the Brexit negotiations incompetent idiots with no clue etc etc, yet you seem to the most easily panicked person to slip into the 'I hate the result, we must vote again' mode before suffering Brexit amnesia.
I think I would have remembered if my first action was to say 'vote again' to something as momentous as the referendum result, plus it also says quite a bit your own ability to think on your feet and a rather disingenuous first action on hearing the result - a bit like hitting a car in a car park and immediately wanting to drive off and get the hell out of there . But feel free to tell PH how everyone else is clueless, forgetful and incompetent.
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