How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 3)

[turbobloke]

Tuna said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

Sway said:

Perhaps they would - after all, at that point of they'd be in complete control.

They pretty much are already.

One party leaving an agreement with twenty seven others is always going to be at a disadvantage.

To me that's an argument for learning to stand on our own feet again.

A very good argument for accepting any possible but not guaranteed intitial disadvantage as I don't accept the 'always' bit (if I read things correctly).

[powerstroke]

Best not to vote in future, waste of time ...... when it gets too bad we can have a revolution !!!!!
Seriously in a way its good what the remainers are doing , anything that goes wrong will be blamed on them and the HOL we can hate and despise the political classes even more !!!

[Sway]

frisbee said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Remainers have an OPINION that Brexit is the wrong decision, that doesn't give them the right to override democracy.

If the vote had been for Remain, would the Brexiters be entitled to get us out of the EU anyway to divert us away from calamity?

The referendum doesn't give May carte blanche to do whatever she wants. If she offered the EU £500 billion to leave would that be acceptable to you?

The referendum was poorly worded and the outcome is being badly executed. They never expected people to vote leave and our "leaders" are frozen like deer in headlights.

Why does the ref matter at all?

In this context, the only thing that matters is the GE - where Grieve, Soubry et al all campaigned under a platform very vocally stating we would be leaving the CU & SM. Note, there was not a caveat in the manifesto of 'only if we can get a FTA'.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Tuna said:

To me that's an argument for learning to stand on our own feet again.

Are we sitting then?

[Crackie]

Tuna said:

Coolbanana said:

Once again, educate yourself and learn what living in a Democracy actually means...;) I chose to leave the country rather than take part.

Remainers fantasise that 50m down the track, your Usain is going to fall off a cliff...the horizon line you see is a hazy mirage with a false finishing line - the Cake you see doesn't exist.
So Remainers are indeed trying to prove they were right about impending calamity.

Remainers arrogantly assume their Beliefs override any other vision. Living in a Democracy means they have every right to campaign and vote for what they believe is best. They absolutely do not have to fall in line with what you expect. Their moral code trumps your own.

In Remainers heads, Vote Leave failed from the outset when it refused to try and predict an unpredictable future. Remainers wanted someone with a crystal ball, just like they assumed they knew exactly what the future of staying in the EU would be like. They voted for that regardless. Now for some reason, they'd rather the country burn than be prove wrong.

FTFY

Coolbanana made an excellent post in the muslim kids / non muslim friends thread at the weekend. It was thoughtful, considerate, compassionate and showed great empathy for the views of others. It recognised his own flaws too and I thought, fair play to you, I'll think of you in a new light in the future.

Sadly, he's back to his usual condescending, sniping and sanctimonious self today. Maybe the classy post at the weekend was ghost written...….

[Digga]

pgh said:

There’s a lot of absolutes being stated in this thread. The reality is that everthing is shades of grey.
The EU seems besiged by problems at the moment, given current trajectory it’s a little hard to see who we’ll be negotating with if matters end up being extended.

This was ever the case.

I think some people - on both sides of the debate - incorrectly assumed the EU with would leave or remain with would be the same EU we'd been part of. It is in flux and TBF, it makes it even more difficult to say with any absolute certainty whether we should have remained, although the undemocratic, dogmatic and aloof nature of the upper echelons of the organisation still grate on me.

[turbobloke]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Tuna said:

To me that's an argument for learning to stand on our own feet again.

Are we sitting then?

Compared to the time(s) prior to joining the EEC then EU post-Maastricht/Rome TFEU, are we lawfully able to take more decisions in more operational areas in Westminster, or fewer decisions involving fewer operational areas due to decision-making powers moving to Brussels?

Within the same comparative timescale are we able as an electorate to elect directly more or fewer political animals with decision-making powers over us?

[PurpleMoonlight]

turbobloke said:

Compared to the time(s) prior to joining the EEC then EU post-Maastricht/Rome TFEU, are we lawfully able to take more decisions in more operational areas in Westminster, or fewer decisions involving fewer operational areas due to decision-making powers moving to Brussels?

Within the same comparative timescale are we able as an electorate to elect directly more or fewer political animals with decision-making powers over us?

I'm not old enough to really remember what it was like pre EEC, I think there was a couple of world wars though.

Let's not forget it was the UK government and parliament that took us into all those treaties you criticise so much. Can you provide three EU enforced laws that have been detrimental to you personally?

[Digga]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Let's not forget it was the UK government and parliament that took us into all those treaties you criticise so much.

The EEC as was, and EU as it was intitially are not what the EU presently is, even if the intent was there.

PurpleMoonlight said:

Can you provide three EU enforced laws that have been detrimental to you personally?

Not that non-sequitur again he? Come on!

Why three, how many words would you like him to write for this homework sir?

[Burwood]

p1stonhead said:

Burwood said:

We all know I’d parliament get a say we simply won’t leave. In fact we’ll stay in some more cosly purgatory. I’d like to see TM start dismantling the Lords. Follow through with the threat.

You said 'who cares if the economy tanks as long as we leave' to be fair, so anything you say now can be disregarded. You clearly dont give a damn about the country.

I don’t recall saying that exactly. And my opinions are driven from a desire for long term prosperity for the UK.

[FiF]

Barnier is saying that the UK will post Brexit be locked out of police and security matters. Rather amusing that in the same breath he speaks of needing a basis of good will. I see no basis of good will evident from the EU or any of its supporters, and any remaining (pun) good will on the UK side rapidly disappearing.

Independent for the report, I refuse to give that rag links, as it is anything but.

[Burwood]

FiF said:

Barnier is saying that the UK will post Brexit be locked out of police and security matters. Rather amusing that in the same breath he speaks of needing a basis of good will. I see no basis of good will evident from the EU or any of its supporters, and any remaining (pun) good will on the UK side rapidly disappearing.

Independent for the report, I refuse to give that rag links, as it is anything but.

We are the ones will all the security info. 5-eyes

[wc98]

Murph7355 said:

This could backfire on them quite badly.

They won't now be angling after a second referendum. A coordinated Leave campaign making the most of just the above line will see a bigger result for Leave IMO.

And a half-hearted leaving will utterly demolish the Tories. It feels like the instigators of this want to remain in no matter what the cost. Which is interesting.

Question is, are there enough Tory pro-EU rebels to carry this out?

i really do hope it does. the last thing we need right now are large swathes of the population going all french in their protesting. i can understand and even sympathise with people opposed to brexit and support their right to campaign for re entry to the eu but there are proper ways to do this. i cannot support uk politicians that in effect are colluding with eu politicians and civil servants to manipulate a result without any consultation with those they represent.

i think they really have failed to take into consideration how people from both sides of the debate will view this,or maybe they have and that is why they don't actually want a second referendum.

[Sway]

FiF said:

Barnier is saying that the UK will post Brexit be locked out of police and security matters. Rather amusing that in the same breath he speaks of needing a basis of good will. I see no basis of good will evident from the EU or any of its supporters, and any remaining (pun) good will on the UK side rapidly disappearing.

Independent for the report, I refuse to give that rag links, as it is anything but.

Guess the furore after May's speech last year was all bullst, and it's fine to put security on the line for political ends...

[Vanden Saab]

The EU totally backed themselves into a corner over galileo and now realise they have really fked up as "🍒 picking is not allowed"
We all know that they cannot be seen to be losing so they will continue to dig the hole... Just another example of them shooting themselves in their own face.....

[Deptford Draylons]

FiF said:

Barnier is saying that the UK will post Brexit be locked out of police and security matters. Rather amusing that in the same breath he speaks of needing a basis of good will. I see no basis of good will evident from the EU or any of its supporters, and any remaining (pun) good will on the UK side rapidly disappearing.

Independent for the report, I refuse to give that rag links, as it is anything but.

Have people not yet worked out, that between various MPs , Lords and MEPs all openly wanting to totally reverse Brexit, that the EU is happy to play along and give them the ammunition that are using very successfully ?

The EU must be laughing their arse off that the above group might achieve exactly what they want, which is the UK not at the table, but otherwise in along with all that this entails.

There was a brief moment on the morning of June 24th where the referendum campaign to stay in the EU stopped. It's been going ever since though, except now its alongside negotiations and having an effect.

[wc98]

Gloria Slap said:

I see you are getting the excuses in early for the failure of brexit.

Never your fault eh? Always someone else to blame. Twas ever thus.

Will you personally be rioting in this “mother of all riots”? What will they be known as? The bendy banana riiots? The working time directive scuffle? Isn’t it a bit silly to get so angry about something that doesn’t really affect you on a day to day basis? Yes, yes it is. Its pathetic really.

Edited by Gloria Slap on Monday 18th June 20:58

there won't be a failure of brexit. there will just be "brexit". not hard, not soft , just brexit. it will be what it will be. we will be leaving the single market, the customs union and quite possibly the echr. how easily it all happens remains to be seen.

i am a recreational sea angler, i spend a lot of time fishing around the uk coast. if there was one group of people that have been affected by eu membership it is anglers and commercial fishermen.at the moment i can no longer catch a bass and take it home to eat, even if it is deep hooked and bleeding to death i have to return it. typical common fisheries blanket rule nonsense that achieves the grand sum of jack st.

i understand the notion of principles when it comes to self governance passes you by, unfortunately for you many others get it. things might be worse post brexit, they might be better. with either scenario there will only be one entity responsible, that entity is the united kingdom. no more passing the buck, stand or fall on our own decision making and ability. if history is anything to go by we will be fine in the long run. with a bit of luck the next lot to get a kick in the bks for wasting tax payers money will the united nations. another lot that went way beyond their remit long ago. you may be happy with unelected bureaucrats empire building on the public purse, me and apparently many others , not so much. have a nice day.

[p1stonhead]

wc98 said:

Gloria Slap said:

I see you are getting the excuses in early for the failure of brexit.

Never your fault eh? Always someone else to blame. Twas ever thus.

Will you personally be rioting in this “mother of all riots”? What will they be known as? The bendy banana riiots? The working time directive scuffle? Isn’t it a bit silly to get so angry about something that doesn’t really affect you on a day to day basis? Yes, yes it is. Its pathetic really.

Edited by Gloria Slap on Monday 18th June 20:58

there won't be a failure of brexit. there will just be "brexit". not hard, not soft , just brexit. it will be what it will be. we will be leaving the single market, the customs union and quite possibly the echr. how easily it all happens remains to be seen.

I admire your optimism for reaching your target. I wouldnt be so sure with the shower we have in charge.

[turbobloke]

PurpleMoonlight said:

turbobloke said:

Compared to the time(s) prior to joining the EEC then EU post-Maastricht/Rome TFEU, are we lawfully able to take more decisions in more operational areas in Westminster, or fewer decisions involving fewer operational areas due to decision-making powers moving to Brussels?

Within the same comparative timescale are we able as an electorate to elect directly more or fewer political animals with decision-making powers over us?

I'm not old enough to really remember what it was like pre EEC, I think there was a couple of world wars though.

Let's not forget it was the UK government and parliament that took us into all those treaties you criticise so much. Can you provide three EU enforced laws that have been detrimental to you personally?

A consummate young politicians' reply, dodging questions then replying with more questions. No need for VAR either, you obviously made no attempt to play the ball.



We both know that post-Maastricht/Rome there has been net power transfer in various areas from Westminster to Brussels where eurodrones not elected directly by UK voters wield that power transfer over us.

To answer your own question directly, not being youngish or a politician, and it's a question which must have been recycled (EU Directive compliant) as it's been punted before:

1. When English law contradicts EU law, EU law prevails. Costa v ENEL [1964] ECR 585 (ECJ). This over-arching position is worth more than three examples as it covers so much turf. It affects me because I know of the judgement and I consider it to be inappropriate, and who did what/when is irrelevant to that impact.
2. EU law has affected me directly when trying to move money, whether for overall good or ill I consider the personal impact to be detrimental as the banks and the EU have a dodgy track record in terms of financial probity whereas mine is and will remain spotless.
3. EU law on renewables (and climate fairytales generally) has adversely affected me to the tune of ~10^2 GBP/year according to a couple of independent sources posted on climate threads.

[PurpleMoonlight]

turbobloke said:

1. When English law contradicts EU law, EU law prevails. Costa v ENEL [1964] ECR 585 (ECJ). This over-arching position is worth more than three examples as it covers so much turf. It affects me because I know of the judgement and I consider it to be inappropriate, and who did what/when is irrelevant to that impact.
2. EU law has affected me directly when trying to move money, whether for overall good or ill I consider the personal impact to be detrimental as the banks and the EU have a dodgy track record in terms of financial probity whereas mine is and will remain spotless.
3. EU law on renewables (and climate fairytales generally) has adversely affected me to the tune of ~10^2 GBP/year according to a couple of independent sources posted on climate threads.

Thank you.

1. Isn't that a principle you don't like rather than something that detrimentally affected you?
2. What law and in what way have you been detrimentally affected?
3. I don't know anything about renewable energy directives. Is the climate change levy an EU directive perhaps?