How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 3)
Discussion
Gloria Slap said:
At the end of the day no matter how much you protest, the flexciteers have abandonned their flexcit dream. This was always a false promise as I said pre ref and Richard North was a snake oil/naive blog dreamer, who sucked many in and was held up as having the answers. For the reasons you now abandon flexcit, he doesn’t and never did.
I have - yet not for any of the reasons you state. You didn't argue against flexcit Pre-Ref as a false promise - you argued that it was the worst of both worlds, and if leave supporters were really committed they'd be confident in 'just leaving'.
"the reasons I now abandon flexcit" aren't exactly supporting your viewpoint for remain, so in fact on the most important question he's still as 'spot on' as he always was.
Keep with the cognitive dissonance, you're providing advocates of Kubler-Ross a goldmine.
Sway said:
I have - yet not for any of the reasons you state.
You didn't argue against flexcit Pre-Ref as a false promise - you argued that it was the worst of both worlds, and if leave supporters were really committed they'd be confident in 'just leaving'.
"the reasons I now abandon flexcit" aren't exactly supporting your viewpoint for remain, so in fact on the most important question he's still as 'spot on' as he always was.
Keep with the cognitive dissonance, you're providing advocates of Kubler-Ross a goldmine.
I always stated flexcit was a false option - as it dreamt of e.g. Liechtenstein type transitions but it was always flawed. You didn't argue against flexcit Pre-Ref as a false promise - you argued that it was the worst of both worlds, and if leave supporters were really committed they'd be confident in 'just leaving'.
"the reasons I now abandon flexcit" aren't exactly supporting your viewpoint for remain, so in fact on the most important question he's still as 'spot on' as he always was.
Keep with the cognitive dissonance, you're providing advocates of Kubler-Ross a goldmine.
How can he be spot on when the whole thing is now being rejected by his disciples? Are you about to blame the EU for frustrating flexcit?
(oh and I see we’re not allowed to discuss flexcit now, bit like the red bus now eh?
)Gloria Slap said:
Sway said:
I have - yet not for any of the reasons you state.
You didn't argue against flexcit Pre-Ref as a false promise - you argued that it was the worst of both worlds, and if leave supporters were really committed they'd be confident in 'just leaving'.
"the reasons I now abandon flexcit" aren't exactly supporting your viewpoint for remain, so in fact on the most important question he's still as 'spot on' as he always was.
Keep with the cognitive dissonance, you're providing advocates of Kubler-Ross a goldmine.
I always stated flexcit was a false option - as it dreamt of e.g. Liechtenstein type transitions but it was always flawed. You didn't argue against flexcit Pre-Ref as a false promise - you argued that it was the worst of both worlds, and if leave supporters were really committed they'd be confident in 'just leaving'.
"the reasons I now abandon flexcit" aren't exactly supporting your viewpoint for remain, so in fact on the most important question he's still as 'spot on' as he always was.
Keep with the cognitive dissonance, you're providing advocates of Kubler-Ross a goldmine.
How can he be spot on when the whole thing is now being rejected by his disciples? Are you about to blame the EU for frustrating flexcit?
(oh and I see we’re not allowed to discuss flexcit now, bit like the red bus now eh?
)The point that he is spot on about is that despite the difficulties, leaving is still the correct option. It does rather call to question the benevolence of a club that makes it as hard as it can to cancel membership - right down to the contractual clauses.
Isn’t it freedom of movement of workers under EEA/EfTA rather than freedom of movement of people?
A subtle but very important difference.
Anyway, seems a moot point as the government is intent on self destruction with its negotiation ability.
Personally I’ve never seen a better option than Flexcit, and as said even RN himself says it’s the least worst option to leave, there is no good way to leave.
A subtle but very important difference.
Anyway, seems a moot point as the government is intent on self destruction with its negotiation ability.
Personally I’ve never seen a better option than Flexcit, and as said even RN himself says it’s the least worst option to leave, there is no good way to leave.
steveatesh said:
Isn’t it freedom of movement of workers under EEA/EfTA rather than freedom of movement of people?
A subtle but very important difference.
Anyway, seems a moot point as the government is intent on self destruction with its negotiation ability.
Personally I’ve never seen a better option than Flexcit, and as said even RN himself says it’s the least worst option to leave, there is no good way to leave.
This^^^ it's always been put forward as compromised with significant concessions in order to make a workable exit stepping stone. That is still the case.A subtle but very important difference.
Anyway, seems a moot point as the government is intent on self destruction with its negotiation ability.
Personally I’ve never seen a better option than Flexcit, and as said even RN himself says it’s the least worst option to leave, there is no good way to leave.
One might suggest that certain factions are desperate to avoid anyone demonstrating that there is an exit path, in order to discourage others.
Again as another pointed out, the overall correct decision is to Leave.
Another unchanging facet in this is the deliberately divisive and mendacious misinterpretation of posts. Plus ça change and all that business.
Gloria Slap said:
Interesting responses.
“thick as mince”
“bet or you’re gammon” - all this aggressive bet or else shouty behaviour comes across as a bit knuckledraggy.
.
It was as I’m sure you know simply a play on words. “thick as mince”
“bet or you’re gammon” - all this aggressive bet or else shouty behaviour comes across as a bit knuckledraggy.
.
You have an inordinate amount to talk about ... daily.
Will you put your money where your mouth is?
A simple Yes or No will suffice.
Seems 50/50 which way it will go for the Government today in the Commons but, whatever happens, possibly something of a historic day as, with or without the "meaningful vote" clause the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill is likely to pass and move to Royal Ascent and law today.
If the Government is defeated then it will be finalised and that will be that - it will become law with the clause in there. If they win then the Lords could, in theory, "ping pong" it again but it looks unlikely so it will become law without the clause.
We are finally at end game on this one - plenty more to come though with customs and trade bills on their way.
If the Government is defeated then it will be finalised and that will be that - it will become law with the clause in there. If they win then the Lords could, in theory, "ping pong" it again but it looks unlikely so it will become law without the clause.
We are finally at end game on this one - plenty more to come though with customs and trade bills on their way.
confused_buyer said:
Seems 50/50 which way it will go for the Government today in the Commons but, whatever happens, possibly something of a historic day as, with or without the "meaningful vote" clause the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill is likely to pass and move to Royal Ascent and law today.
If the Government is defeated then it will be finalised and that will be that - it will become law with the clause in there. If they win then the Lords could, in theory, "ping pong" it again but it looks unlikely so it will become law without the clause.
We are finally at end game on this one - plenty more to come though with customs and trade bills on their way.
I cant see the government losing today to be honest.If the Government is defeated then it will be finalised and that will be that - it will become law with the clause in there. If they win then the Lords could, in theory, "ping pong" it again but it looks unlikely so it will become law without the clause.
We are finally at end game on this one - plenty more to come though with customs and trade bills on their way.
Gloria Slap said:
Interesting responses.
“thick as mince”
“bet or you’re gammon” - all this aggressive bet or else shouty behaviour comes across as a bit knuckledraggy.
Poor show, Glo, though not surprising.“thick as mince”
“bet or you’re gammon” - all this aggressive bet or else shouty behaviour comes across as a bit knuckledraggy.
If you were paid NMW for posting here, you'd be up many multiples of £300 by now.
You know what's going to happen, you know how it's going to happen. You get to say "I TOLD YOU ALL!" and you get £300 to a charity of your choice, which was acquired over many hours by a knuckledragging racist Brexiteer, probably. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Smiler. said:
Gloria Slap said:
Interesting responses.
“thick as mince”
“bet or you’re gammon” - all this aggressive bet or else shouty behaviour comes across as a bit knuckledraggy.
At the end of the day no matter how much you protest, the flexciteers have abandonned their flexcit dream. This was always a false promise as I said pre ref and Richard North was a snake oil/naive blog dreamer, who sucked many in and was held up as having the answers. For the reasons you now abandon flexcit, he doesn’t and never did.
“thick as mince”
“bet or you’re gammon” - all this aggressive bet or else shouty behaviour comes across as a bit knuckledraggy.
At the end of the day no matter how much you protest, the flexciteers have abandonned their flexcit dream. This was always a false promise as I said pre ref and Richard North was a snake oil/naive blog dreamer, who sucked many in and was held up as having the answers. For the reasons you now abandon flexcit, he doesn’t and never did.
Are you related to JJ?
PS: "flexcit" in every post for at least the next two weeks until slasher gets excited by another word
p1stonhead said:
I cant see the government losing today to be honest.
Entirely possible either way I reckon. It will be close unless a last minute deal is done. Ironically I can also see May ending up with a deal which the Remainers are quite happy with but the Brexiteers in her party are furious about and use the opportunity of a vote to put pressure on her.With the direction of travel very much towards a "soft" Brexit I think, perhaps, Grieve etc. should be careful what they wish for and they might find their own amendment comes back to haunt them in the long run.
If the process is going pretty much your own way why try and blow it up?
confused_buyer said:
p1stonhead said:
I cant see the government losing today to be honest.
Entirely possible/likely. Ironically I can also see May ending up with a deal which the Remainers are quite happy with but the Brexiteers in her party are furious about and use the opportunity of a vote to put pressure on her.With the direction of travel very much towards a "soft" Brexit I think, perhaps, Grieve etc. should be careful what they wish for and they might find their own amendment comes back to haunt them in the long run.
If the process is going pretty much your own way why try and blow it up?
Are they voting today on the lords amendment again today? So the government will want to vote it down?
p1stonhead said:
I have sort of lost track to be honest.
Are they voting today on the lords amendment again today? So the government will want to vote it down?
Yes, Government will want to reject it. This is the only outstanding clause in the bill so we are at "end game" on it. The Bill should pass today one way or another with or without the amendment unless the Lords go really bonkers.Are they voting today on the lords amendment again today? So the government will want to vote it down?
confused_buyer said:
p1stonhead said:
I have sort of lost track to be honest.
Are they voting today on the lords amendment again today? So the government will want to vote it down?
Yes, Government will want to reject it. This is the only outstanding clause in the bill so we are at "end game" on it. The Bill should pass today one way or another with or without the amendment unless the Lords go really bonkers.Are they voting today on the lords amendment again today? So the government will want to vote it down?
steveatesh said:
Isn’t it freedom of movement of workers under EEA/EfTA rather than freedom of movement of people?
A subtle but very important difference.
Anyway, seems a moot point as the government is intent on self destruction with its negotiation ability.
Personally I’ve never seen a better option than Flexcit, and as said even RN himself says it’s the least worst option to leave, there is no good way to leave.
The EU does not include freedom of movement of people. It includes freedom of movement to exercise a treaty right. You cannot for example move just to receive benefits.A subtle but very important difference.
Anyway, seems a moot point as the government is intent on self destruction with its negotiation ability.
Personally I’ve never seen a better option than Flexcit, and as said even RN himself says it’s the least worst option to leave, there is no good way to leave.
As for Flexit to quote one of the most important figures in modern European history.
“Politics is the art of the possible”
Or if you disagree with Otto maybe you would prefer an important economist.
“Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable”
jsf said:
I'm more edging towards a government defeat, Grieve and Soubrey are mental enough to screw May over.
Grieve and Soubrey (plus Ken Clarke) yes but they need about 13-14 to vote against them to lose. It'll be the others which make the difference. The Government have about 5 regular Labour MPs who tend to vote with them on this which balances it a bit and makes the whole thing on a knife edge.confused_buyer said:
jsf said:
I'm more edging towards a government defeat, Grieve and Soubrey are mental enough to screw May over.
Grieve and Soubrey (plus Ken Clarke) yes but they need about 13-14 to vote against them to lose. It'll be the others which make the difference. The Government have about 5 regular Labour MPs who tend to vote with them on this which balances it a bit and makes the whole thing on a knife edge.It's going to be close.
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