Just can’t get the shipbuilders nowadays.....
Discussion
Jonesy23 said:
Lord Marylebone said:
I was talking to a very well respected engine builder and tuner of vehicles today, and he stated categorically "Any parts made in Britain are complete s
te'".
.
Only if you're buying ste'". .
te parts. He probably gets Chinese stuff from his suppliers. Plenty of high end parts are designed and made in the UK and used by OEMs internationally.
t they are 
I’ve been lucky enough that my profession has allowed me to work in manufacturing across a number of industries and one of the few constants has been over-torquing of fasteners. From my limited experience it’s people doing two ugga duggas rather than winding the fastener in and then nipping up with a correctly set torque wrench.
The rest of the stuff seems reasonable when compared to snagging lists of some big buildings. I’m encouraged that these things have been picked up and rectified which demonstrates the process works
JuniorD said:
Imagine having the job of estimating the cost of a ship build at the tender stage. It must be so easy to screw up, unless to go in so high that you won't win the contract and won't subsequently have to stress about bankrupting the yard
I always wonder about the people designing an oil platform. Making sure everything fits together, the pipes are the correct size etc!Kccv23highliftcam said:
"Consider all the testing"
As a resident F35 naysayer, may I point out they haven't actually "tested" anything of the airframe and systems of even the BASIC go to war aircraft!!
Testing was deferred to get the program back on track many years ago.
That didn't work either.
There's been a lot of flights by F35s out my way. Making a lot of noise but look to be having fun.As a resident F35 naysayer, may I point out they haven't actually "tested" anything of the airframe and systems of even the BASIC go to war aircraft!!
Testing was deferred to get the program back on track many years ago.
That didn't work either.
NRS said:
JuniorD said:
Imagine having the job of estimating the cost of a ship build at the tender stage. It must be so easy to screw up, unless to go in so high that you won't win the contract and won't subsequently have to stress about bankrupting the yard
I always wonder about the people designing an oil platform. Making sure everything fits together, the pipes are the correct size etc!
MartG said:
NRS said:
JuniorD said:
Imagine having the job of estimating the cost of a ship build at the tender stage. It must be so easy to screw up, unless to go in so high that you won't win the contract and won't subsequently have to stress about bankrupting the yard
I always wonder about the people designing an oil platform. Making sure everything fits together, the pipes are the correct size etc!Lord Marylebone said:
Doesn't surprise me.
We can't even design or make car parts properly, nevermind build a ship.
I was talking to a very well respected engine builder and tuner of vehicles today, and he stated categorically "Any parts made in Britain are complete ste'".
Things like turbos, manifolds, exhausts, intercoolers, brake calipers, pistons, rods, injectors. That kind of thing.
He only buys parts from Japan and the US now, as he's experienced nothing but 'junk' from
UK manufacturers.
This is surprising news, I wonder why so many high tech parts manufacturing companies are based in the UK, sounds like an opportunity to me to offer more parts built here.We can't even design or make car parts properly, nevermind build a ship.
I was talking to a very well respected engine builder and tuner of vehicles today, and he stated categorically "Any parts made in Britain are complete s
te'". Things like turbos, manifolds, exhausts, intercoolers, brake calipers, pistons, rods, injectors. That kind of thing.
He only buys parts from Japan and the US now, as he's experienced nothing but 'junk' from
UK manufacturers.
"My mate" who tunes a few old cars is the consensus on manufacturing globally, hmmm.. are you sure they are not made in China and falsy branded, it happens a lot.
Give these guys a call and ask how their sales are doing in the UK: https://uk.dmgmori.com/
KrissKross said:
MartG said:
NRS said:
JuniorD said:
Imagine having the job of estimating the cost of a ship build at the tender stage. It must be so easy to screw up, unless to go in so high that you won't win the contract and won't subsequently have to stress about bankrupting the yard
I always wonder about the people designing an oil platform. Making sure everything fits together, the pipes are the correct size etc!NRS said:
It's more just making sure everything is the right size, and also manufactured the correct size too, some of what will be to very fine tolerances. It's basically putting together a jigsaw puzzle from quite a few different companies, making sure things are done in the right order (although that doesn't always happen) and so on.
I agree, CAD models these days are made to the right sizes, they can also be checked on screen for fit, tolerances and stress simulations, in the same way, F1 components are made for lightness and optimising strength. Yoy can also swap around materials and see what happens on screen.Parts are generally outputted to CNC or similar machines that simply copy the part drawing, good Lathes and Machining Centres also check tooling wear and compensate for this.
Both the right skills and the right manufacturing machines are key.
KarlMac said:
Someone better get onto all those motorsport teams that build parts in the UK warn them how st they are
You are talking about something completely different to me.t they are You are talking about people like McLaren, Williams, Red Bull etc. They will naturally be spending huge amounts on having parts made to exacting standards.
I'm talking about engineering companies who design and make uprated turbos, intercoolers, rods, exhausts, manifolds etc here in the UK and sell them to aftermarket tuners and engine builders.
And the concencus is that the Japanese and Americans manufacture these type of parts to a far higher standard and to better designs than our chaps can, for a price that is virtually the same.
I wasn't commenting on our ability to build F1 cars or WRC cars.
Lord Marylebone said:
You are talking about something completely different to me.
You are talking about people like McLaren, Williams, Red Bull etc. They will naturally be spending huge amounts on having parts made to exacting standards.
I'm talking about engineering companies who design and make uprated turbos, intercoolers, rods, exhausts, manifolds etc here in the UK and sell them to aftermarket tuners and engine builders.
And the concencus is that the Japanese and Americans manufacture these type of parts to a far higher standard and to better designs than our chaps can, for a price that is virtually the same.
I wasn't commenting on our ability to build F1 cars or WRC cars.
How can you get an exhaust or manifold wrong, they are relatively simple parts?You are talking about people like McLaren, Williams, Red Bull etc. They will naturally be spending huge amounts on having parts made to exacting standards.
I'm talking about engineering companies who design and make uprated turbos, intercoolers, rods, exhausts, manifolds etc here in the UK and sell them to aftermarket tuners and engine builders.
And the concencus is that the Japanese and Americans manufacture these type of parts to a far higher standard and to better designs than our chaps can, for a price that is virtually the same.
I wasn't commenting on our ability to build F1 cars or WRC cars.
KrissKross said:
Lord Marylebone said:
You are talking about something completely different to me.
You are talking about people like McLaren, Williams, Red Bull etc. They will naturally be spending huge amounts on having parts made to exacting standards.
I'm talking about engineering companies who design and make uprated turbos, intercoolers, rods, exhausts, manifolds etc here in the UK and sell them to aftermarket tuners and engine builders.
And the concencus is that the Japanese and Americans manufacture these type of parts to a far higher standard and to better designs than our chaps can, for a price that is virtually the same.
I wasn't commenting on our ability to build F1 cars or WRC cars.
How can you get an exhaust or manifold wrong, they are relatively simple parts?You are talking about people like McLaren, Williams, Red Bull etc. They will naturally be spending huge amounts on having parts made to exacting standards.
I'm talking about engineering companies who design and make uprated turbos, intercoolers, rods, exhausts, manifolds etc here in the UK and sell them to aftermarket tuners and engine builders.
And the concencus is that the Japanese and Americans manufacture these type of parts to a far higher standard and to better designs than our chaps can, for a price that is virtually the same.
I wasn't commenting on our ability to build F1 cars or WRC cars.
But I recently witnessed my with my own eyes a British designed and made intercooler and pipework rob a 750bhp GTR of over 50bhp compared to an American system of the same size and the same flow/power rating. The charge temperatures were around 30c higher.
It's just a radiator that cools air for f
k sake.The guy bought it as he didn't want to wait weeks for the American item, but ended up wasting his money as it was taken off in the end and swapped for the American one which cost the same.
With regards to aftermarket engine building, tuning, and associated parts manufacturing, the Americans and Japanese are just streets ahead of us.
I'm simply giving a small example of precision engineering, design, and manufacturing here Vs our competition abroad.
Lord Marylebone said:
Indeed. How can you?
But I recently witnessed my with my own eyes a British designed and made intercooler and pipework rob a 750bhp GTR of over 50bhp compared to an American system of the same size and the same flow/power rating. The charge temperatures were around 30c higher.
It's just a radiator that cools air for fk sake.
The guy bought it as he didn't want to wait weeks for the American item, but ended up wasting his money as it was taken off in the end and swapped for the American one which cost the same.
With regards to aftermarket engine building, tuning, and associated parts manufacturing, the Americans and Japanese are just streets ahead of us.
I'm simply giving a small example of precision engineering, design, and manufacturing here Vs our competition abroad.
You seem to be generalising from a few specific parts for a very niche industry to "all British manufacturing is sBut I recently witnessed my with my own eyes a British designed and made intercooler and pipework rob a 750bhp GTR of over 50bhp compared to an American system of the same size and the same flow/power rating. The charge temperatures were around 30c higher.
It's just a radiator that cools air for f
k sake.The guy bought it as he didn't want to wait weeks for the American item, but ended up wasting his money as it was taken off in the end and swapped for the American one which cost the same.
With regards to aftermarket engine building, tuning, and associated parts manufacturing, the Americans and Japanese are just streets ahead of us.
I'm simply giving a small example of precision engineering, design, and manufacturing here Vs our competition abroad.
te", while excluding all the examples given where it is in fact very good.
cymtriks said:
On the other hand consider how many people over how many years have been involved in the F135.
Then consider how utterly different it is from every other aircraft.
Then consider how it has to outperform everything else it comes up against
Consider all the testing, analysis, redesigns, training, tooling, manuals, etc
Now spread those costs over a short production run
If you ask a contractor to deliver something just short of impossible they'll charge you the going rate for just short of impossible.
Just to give you a feel for some defence jobs I'm currently in the 15th month of analysis of a pipe. Yes, that's right, a pipe. Though the pipe itself is fairly simple the consequences of design changes are extremely complex. It bolts onto lots of other bits that are extremely complex. The number of people who understand each of those bits is very small.
Another example, bolts. Some bolts are very ordinary, some are very odd (made from very expensive alloys, a special shape and require tooling costing hundreds of thousands to fit). I have been involved with several bolts that are very odd. Analysis of bolts, patterns of bolts, failure of bolts, fatigue life of bolts has taken many years of my working life. The cost per bolt is utterly frightening and may look like someone is "taking the piss" but it is actually a reflection of them being very odd bolts.
Using pencil and paper I planned and fitted a central heating system in a week, if you can't quickly sort out a complicated pipe with all the software you have access to there is something wrongThen consider how utterly different it is from every other aircraft.
Then consider how it has to outperform everything else it comes up against
Consider all the testing, analysis, redesigns, training, tooling, manuals, etc
Now spread those costs over a short production run
If you ask a contractor to deliver something just short of impossible they'll charge you the going rate for just short of impossible.
Just to give you a feel for some defence jobs I'm currently in the 15th month of analysis of a pipe. Yes, that's right, a pipe. Though the pipe itself is fairly simple the consequences of design changes are extremely complex. It bolts onto lots of other bits that are extremely complex. The number of people who understand each of those bits is very small.
Another example, bolts. Some bolts are very ordinary, some are very odd (made from very expensive alloys, a special shape and require tooling costing hundreds of thousands to fit). I have been involved with several bolts that are very odd. Analysis of bolts, patterns of bolts, failure of bolts, fatigue life of bolts has taken many years of my working life. The cost per bolt is utterly frightening and may look like someone is "taking the piss" but it is actually a reflection of them being very odd bolts.
Send me the info I'll do it for a fiver
CrutyRammers said:
Lord Marylebone said:
Indeed. How can you?
But I recently witnessed my with my own eyes a British designed and made intercooler and pipework rob a 750bhp GTR of over 50bhp compared to an American system of the same size and the same flow/power rating. The charge temperatures were around 30c higher.
It's just a radiator that cools air for fk sake.
The guy bought it as he didn't want to wait weeks for the American item, but ended up wasting his money as it was taken off in the end and swapped for the American one which cost the same.
With regards to aftermarket engine building, tuning, and associated parts manufacturing, the Americans and Japanese are just streets ahead of us.
I'm simply giving a small example of precision engineering, design, and manufacturing here Vs our competition abroad.
You seem to be generalising from a few specific parts for a very niche industry to "all British manufacturing is sBut I recently witnessed my with my own eyes a British designed and made intercooler and pipework rob a 750bhp GTR of over 50bhp compared to an American system of the same size and the same flow/power rating. The charge temperatures were around 30c higher.
It's just a radiator that cools air for f
k sake.The guy bought it as he didn't want to wait weeks for the American item, but ended up wasting his money as it was taken off in the end and swapped for the American one which cost the same.
With regards to aftermarket engine building, tuning, and associated parts manufacturing, the Americans and Japanese are just streets ahead of us.
I'm simply giving a small example of precision engineering, design, and manufacturing here Vs our competition abroad.
te", while excluding all the examples given where it is in fact very good.227bhp said:
cymtriks said:
Just to give you a feel for some defence jobs I'm currently in the 15th month of analysis of a pipe. Yes, that's right, a pipe.
It sounds like you're part of the problem.Maybe this pipe is made from a high grade stainless steel with strange fatigue properties, or mild steel with a welded Inconel overlay.
Maybe it has various features welded to it that compromise the integrity of the pipe material’s published data.
Maybe the pipe has to undergo a fatigue environment, which involves considerable material fracture knowledge, and the client can’t/won’t supply them with any test/fatigue data.
Maybe the pipe is for a nuclear facility, and it has to be designed, analysed, made and tested, commissioned and signed off to ASME Viii or ASME iii, or maybe ASME iX as well. Maybe this pipe has to pass PD5500 design rules as well, and rationalise the conflicts these 2 standards have with one another.,
Maybe the legislation has changed halfway through the project build and extra work is required.
Maybe the pipe has to undergo seismic loading, and the client doesn’t have any test data to stipulate what that data should be, or more likely keeps changing their mind as to what it should be.
Maybe this pipe undergoes a corrosion attack that isn’t fully understood and they have had problems with in the past, and the client refuses to have problems with it this time.
Maybe the client has changed their mind as to what pressure, flows, life span etc.… it will undergo for its life. Maybe they have done this more than once.
Maybe the pipe has to be lifted into position using special equipment, and with new lifting regulations in place for that environment.
Maybe the fabricators of the pipe have gone bust due to the Oil industry collapse, and now others now have to be trained up to manufacture a very high specification pipe. Maybe these problems are being fed back to the analysis team for damage acceptance criteria.
Maybe we’ll ignore any thermal effects, heat transfer, buckling, fracture mechanics, and the 60+ page technical report that will go with it to back up the conclusions.
Maybe …. Maybe…
Maybe it’s just a pipe and cymtriks needs his/her backside kicking.-I doubt it though....
bucksmanuk said:
227bhp said:
cymtriks said:
Just to give you a feel for some defence jobs I'm currently in the 15th month of analysis of a pipe. Yes, that's right, a pipe.
It sounds like you're part of the problem.Maybe this pipe is made from a high grade stainless steel with strange fatigue properties, or mild steel with a welded Inconel overlay.
Maybe it has various features welded to it that compromise the integrity of the pipe material’s published data.
Maybe the pipe has to undergo a fatigue environment, which involves considerable material fracture knowledge, and the client can’t/won’t supply them with any test/fatigue data.
Maybe the pipe is for a nuclear facility, and it has to be designed, analysed, made and tested, commissioned and signed off to ASME Viii or ASME iii, or maybe ASME iX as well. Maybe this pipe has to pass PD5500 design rules as well, and rationalise the conflicts these 2 standards have with one another.,
Maybe the legislation has changed halfway through the project build and extra work is required.
Maybe the pipe has to undergo seismic loading, and the client doesn’t have any test data to stipulate what that data should be, or more likely keeps changing their mind as to what it should be.
Maybe this pipe undergoes a corrosion attack that isn’t fully understood and they have had problems with in the past, and the client refuses to have problems with it this time.
Maybe the client has changed their mind as to what pressure, flows, life span etc.… it will undergo for its life. Maybe they have done this more than once.
Maybe the pipe has to be lifted into position using special equipment, and with new lifting regulations in place for that environment.
Maybe the fabricators of the pipe have gone bust due to the Oil industry collapse, and now others now have to be trained up to manufacture a very high specification pipe. Maybe these problems are being fed back to the analysis team for damage acceptance criteria.
Maybe we’ll ignore any thermal effects, heat transfer, buckling, fracture mechanics, and the 60+ page technical report that will go with it to back up the conclusions.
Maybe …. Maybe…
Maybe it’s just a pipe and cymtriks needs his/her backside kicking.-I doubt it though....
bucksmanuk said:
Or maybe the pipe is 12 metres long, and 400 mm diameter.
Maybe this pipe is made from a high grade stainless steel with strange fatigue properties, or mild steel with a welded Inconel overlay.
Maybe it has various features welded to it that compromise the integrity of the pipe material’s published data.
Maybe the pipe has to undergo a fatigue environment, which involves considerable material fracture knowledge, and the client can’t/won’t supply them with any test/fatigue data.
Maybe the pipe is for a nuclear facility, and it has to be designed, analysed, made and tested, commissioned and signed off to ASME Viii or ASME iii, or maybe ASME iX as well. Maybe this pipe has to pass PD5500 design rules as well, and rationalise the conflicts these 2 standards have with one another.,
Maybe the legislation has changed halfway through the project build and extra work is required.
---
Maybe this pipe undergoes a corrosion attack that isn’t fully understood and they have had problems with in the past, and the client refuses to have problems with it this time.
Maybe …. Maybe…
Maybe it’s just a pipe and cymtriks needs his/her backside kicking.-I doubt it though....
You weren't thinking of this pipe were you? https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cms...Maybe this pipe is made from a high grade stainless steel with strange fatigue properties, or mild steel with a welded Inconel overlay.
Maybe it has various features welded to it that compromise the integrity of the pipe material’s published data.
Maybe the pipe has to undergo a fatigue environment, which involves considerable material fracture knowledge, and the client can’t/won’t supply them with any test/fatigue data.
Maybe the pipe is for a nuclear facility, and it has to be designed, analysed, made and tested, commissioned and signed off to ASME Viii or ASME iii, or maybe ASME iX as well. Maybe this pipe has to pass PD5500 design rules as well, and rationalise the conflicts these 2 standards have with one another.,
Maybe the legislation has changed halfway through the project build and extra work is required.
---
Maybe this pipe undergoes a corrosion attack that isn’t fully understood and they have had problems with in the past, and the client refuses to have problems with it this time.
Maybe …. Maybe…
Maybe it’s just a pipe and cymtriks needs his/her backside kicking.-I doubt it though....
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