Was Kipling racist?

[Supercilious Sid]

FourWheelDrift said:

citizensm1th said:

dandarez said:

citizensm1th said:

philv said:

And to think tney are allowed to vote.

So are 80 year olds with dementia

How do they find the polling station or remember the day to vote then?

Mind you, many students seem not to even realise the importance of a vote.

As for the story:
Sara Khan, the Student Union's 'Liberation and Access Officer'

By proxy you dolt

Only if they find a post box - https://apiln.co.uk/ive-been-posting-my-letters-in...

Er...that is postal voting. Completely different from proxy voting.

[anonymous-user]

Frybywire said:

AlexC1981 said:

little scrotes were put to work, beggars were sent to the workhouses, your wife would fulfill her womanly duties....or else, homosexuals were sinners to be executed and black people were savages who needed controlling.

You found the UKIP manifesto then.

[Douglas Quaid]

We had the great British empire. That is a fact, whether people like it or not. If people don’t like that for some reason then they are free to exit our island. They should look at how the empire benefitted the country in which they now live rather than committing vandalism.

[Ayahuasca]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Scottish?

[Ayahuasca]

Was Kipling racist?

I do not believe that racism as a concept existed in Kipling's time. Therefore it is not possible for him to have been racist.

[Frybywire]

mx5nut said:

Why is this even news?

Its Gammonade.

[Ridgemont]

Kipling = racism is lazy thinking.
Kipling was a product of empire but was an outsider (born in India) who was intensely sceptical of imperial hubris, and hated ignorance.

Removing ‘if’ is intensely stupid; it’s like book burning Romeo & Juliette because you object to Othello, but even if you think ‘Kim’ is racist that is a spectacularly one dimensional reading of that book;

A good article on it from a couple of years ago;

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/12/read...

[Halb]

Ayahuasca said:

Was Kipling racist?

I do not believe that racism as a concept existed in Kipling's time. Therefore it is not possible for him to have been racist.

thinking another race was inferior wsn't around back then?

[Ridgemont]

Halb said:

Ayahuasca said:

Was Kipling racist?

I do not believe that racism as a concept existed in Kipling's time. Therefore it is not possible for him to have been racist.

thinking another race was inferior wsn't around back then?

I’m interested as I am a bit of a Kipling fan. Where does he say a race is inferior?

[Derek Smith]

TooMany2cvs said:

Derek Smith said:

It's aspirational. Who couldn't fail to be inspired by it, to use it as a target?

It's not exactly encouraging to half of the human population, tbf.

But whether one particular poem may or may not have certain overtones is a different question to whether the poet himself held those views.

You think women cannot be inspired by the poem? It is not exclusive despite the language. I used to live in a village where he'd had his pad and the Kipling Society there was led by a woman who loved this poem.

You have to separate the object from its source. If there was anything racist in the poem then it is right that it should be condemned. If not then the man should be exposed. The problem, however, is that most people around 130 years ago were racist to an extent. They were fed misinformation by schools, by various religions and by those in high places. The odds are that we would have been racist in those times. We are lucky to be born at a time when morals and morés had changed. We would have been equally chuffed with ourselves in those days with their views as we would have conformed.

Ever wondered what your grandchildren will be shocked by when they come around to an old people's home to see you on your birthday? Your son/daughter will tell them 'And if you change the conversation to [insert what is ok now but will be shocking then] there will be no [latest electronic device] time for you tonight.'

[Dindoit]

Ridgemont said:

Halb said:

Ayahuasca said:

Was Kipling racist?

I do not believe that racism as a concept existed in Kipling's time. Therefore it is not possible for him to have been racist.

thinking another race was inferior wsn't around back then?

I’m interested as I am a bit of a Kipling fan. Where does he say a race is inferior?

He was a strong advocate of colonialism. His works include “Take up the White Man’s Burden” which encourages America to take control of the Philippines. They were savages and needed saving.

Whether that’s racist is whether you believe colonialism was racist and that’s the main thrust of the debate. Personally I don’t think it’s fair to judge people by today’s standards however I can understand people not wanting to celebrate his work.

[irocfan]

Ridgemont said:

Halb said:

Ayahuasca said:

Was Kipling racist?

I do not believe that racism as a concept existed in Kipling's time. Therefore it is not possible for him to have been racist.

thinking another race was inferior wsn't around back then?

I’m interested as I am a bit of a Kipling fan. Where does he say a race is inferior?

IIRC you'd be looking at White Man's Burden for that...

[Roofless Toothless]

I have just thrown away all my Wagner recordings, as well as the 200 books I have collected about his life and music. I have burnt all my Dickens books - that Fagin thing was awful. And, of course, Shakespeare is no longer welcome on my bookshelves after that Shylock play. All the Joseph Conrad will have to go because of that book about the Narcissus.

This will make a lot of space, and I am sure the world will be all the better for it.

[Ridgemont]

irocfan said:

Ridgemont said:

Halb said:

Ayahuasca said:

Was Kipling racist?

I do not believe that racism as a concept existed in Kipling's time. Therefore it is not possible for him to have been racist.

thinking another race was inferior wsn't around back then?

I’m interested as I am a bit of a Kipling fan. Where does he say a race is inferior?

IIRC you'd be looking at White Man's Burden for that...

Which isn’t racist. And I guess why is this whole ‘x must fall’ nonsense always drives me up the wall. It’s like listening to someone arguing about history who has only read the puffin book of kings and queens of England.

In fact it’s very double edged about imperialism despite being regarded as imperialist.

[Derek Smith]

Dindoit said:

Ridgemont said:

Halb said:

Ayahuasca said:

Was Kipling racist?

I do not believe that racism as a concept existed in Kipling's time. Therefore it is not possible for him to have been racist.

thinking another race was inferior wsn't around back then?

I’m interested as I am a bit of a Kipling fan. Where does he say a race is inferior?

He was a strong advocate of colonialism. His works include “Take up the White Man’s Burden” which encourages America to take control of the Philippines. They were savages and needed saving.

Whether that’s racist is whether you believe colonialism was racist and that’s the main thrust of the debate. Personally I don’t think it’s fair to judge people by today’s standards however I can understand people not wanting to celebrate his work.

By today's standards, some of Kipling's aspirations were not merely conforming but leading. White Man's Burden shows a certain conceit, ie 'our' way is better, but that's hardly unknown nowadays. The poem asked the 'white man', ie western civilisation, to: fill full the mouth of Famine and bid the sickness cease. In other words encouraging others to do what many charities aspire to nowadays. And quite rightly.

There seems little doubt that Kipling thought that the English Way was the best and that it was the duty of the English(man) to bring the benefits of civilisation to those he thought were suffering under their current way of life. In many ways that's quite modern thinking. We've had recent wars to rid countries of tyrants and bring in the benefits of democracy, although mainly limited to those countries with large reserves of oil.

That he was wrong, at least according to modern thinking, is hardly reason to castigate him. He was, like those who damaged his poem, merely conforming to the beliefs of his peers. In many ways, especially in caring - famine and disease irradiated - for those he felt less fortunate, he was streets ahead of them. There were other positive sentiments in the poem. Read it and it is clear he wants to benefit those he thought worse off. There was an incredible conceit with regards the English way of life, but he was educated at private school amongst the children of those ruling the Empire. He was, in fact, indoctrinated to an extent. His view on life could be seen as generous given his upbringing.

I like many of Kipling's poems. I read them first as a kid and could understand them, yet they are not solely for kids. He's an interesting bloke. Read up on him. Racist? Probably. Extremist? No. Cruel? Hardly. He's just some guy who wrote some lovely inspiring poetry.

[Einion Yrth]

irocfan said:

Ridgemont said:

Halb said:

Ayahuasca said:

Was Kipling racist?

I do not believe that racism as a concept existed in Kipling's time. Therefore it is not possible for him to have been racist.

thinking another race was inferior wsn't around back then?

I’m interested as I am a bit of a Kipling fan. Where does he say a race is inferior?

IIRC you'd be looking at White Man's Burden for that...

Compare and contrast with "Gunga Din"; it's not as straightforward as some modern sensibilities would have us believe.

[Camoradi]

mx5nut said:

Students paint a wall in their own room.

Easily offended brigade get offended about them doing it.

Why is this even news?

It's in The Guardian. No-one is saying it's news.

[gizlaroc]

The phone in on LBC was good yesterday on this, someone from the Uni called up to say it has been done by a handful of students who are offended, all of whom are are white. He said history can't be changed, and why be offended about history, leave it there to embarrass yourself to make you do things differently going forward, whatever it may be, but trying to erase something says more about those who are offended than anything else.

He said as a black man from overseas he found it all hilarious and a bit sad where the western world is heading.

[Andehh]

FourWheelDrift said:

I was going to say these students will one day be leaders of commerce and high ranking decision makers on the national and international scene, but then thought they are all probably sociology students so one day you will be ordering your fast food from them instead.

"the union’s liberation and access officer"

That about sums it up.

[funkyrobot]

dandarez said:

citizensm1th said:

philv said:

And to think tney are allowed to vote.

So are 80 year olds with dementia

How do they find the polling station or remember the day to vote then?

Mind you, many students seem not to even realise the importance of a vote.

As for the story:
Sara Khan, the Student Union's 'Liberation and Access Officer'

Khhhhaaannnnnnnn!