Jeremy Corbyn (Vol. 3)

[Piha]

AstonZagato said:

I'm not sure Corbyn is anti-semitic. I do believe that his hatred of the state of Israel, his unquestioning support for revolutionary marxist terrorists who attack Jewish people as a means of forwarding their own cause, his determination to eradicate capitalism have all blinded him to some obvious facts. That many around him are embracing anti-semitic views. That hatred of Israel has morphed into something more sinister. That support for Palestine has gone hand in glove with disavowing Zionism (on the simple level of a Jewish homeland rather than the state of Israel) and it is a short hop from hatred of Zionism to anti-semitism. That anti-capitalist rhetoric has come to encompass anti-Jewish tropes (e.g, mural). That many of his supporters see wealthy, white Jewish people as the enemy. That people who have fought racism against ethnic minorities could be guilty of racism against a religious group. That the anti-jewish undertone is as powerful a dog-whistle message to large sections of Labour as anti-immigrant language is to large sections of Tories or UKIP. That in failing to take decisive action, he has allowed some supporters to persecute Jewish Labour supporters. In doing that, he has given the message that anti-semiticism is not only tolerated within the Labour party but it is an acceptable set of beliefs, especially if disguised with pro-Palestinian anti-capitalist rhetoric. It will now be very difficult to eradicate.

Thanks for your excellent post. I sums up my views of the current anti semitism issues that Jeremy & Labour have to deal with.

Further to your comment, I do wonder if Jeremy has a few longstanding friends and allies within the Labour Party and affiliated organisations that have more slightly more hardline views on anti semitism? Does he feel a sense of loyalty towards them? Who knows, but willingness to engage with certain groups whilst shunning the 'other' side shows to me that he chooses sides rather than genuinely pursues a lasting peace.

[biggbn]

Piha said:

AstonZagato said:

I'm not sure Corbyn is anti-semitic. I do believe that his hatred of the state of Israel, his unquestioning support for revolutionary marxist terrorists who attack Jewish people as a means of forwarding their own cause, his determination to eradicate capitalism have all blinded him to some obvious facts. That many around him are embracing anti-semitic views. That hatred of Israel has morphed into something more sinister. That support for Palestine has gone hand in glove with disavowing Zionism (on the simple level of a Jewish homeland rather than the state of Israel) and it is a short hop from hatred of Zionism to anti-semitism. That anti-capitalist rhetoric has come to encompass anti-Jewish tropes (e.g, mural). That many of his supporters see wealthy, white Jewish people as the enemy. That people who have fought racism against ethnic minorities could be guilty of racism against a religious group. That the anti-jewish undertone is as powerful a dog-whistle message to large sections of Labour as anti-immigrant language is to large sections of Tories or UKIP. That in failing to take decisive action, he has allowed some supporters to persecute Jewish Labour supporters. In doing that, he has given the message that anti-semiticism is not only tolerated within the Labour party but it is an acceptable set of beliefs, especially if disguised with pro-Palestinian anti-capitalist rhetoric. It will now be very difficult to eradicate.

Thanks for your excellent post. I sums up my views of the current anti semitism issues that Jeremy & Labour have to deal with.

Further to your comment, I do wonder if Jeremy has a few longstanding friends and allies within the Labour Party and affiliated organisations that have more slightly more hardline views on anti semitism? Does he feel a sense of loyalty towards them? Who knows, but willingness to engage with certain groups whilst shunning the 'other' side shows to me that he chooses sides rather than genuinely pursues a lasting peace.

Two excellent posts thank you. His problem is that of intransigence brought about through idealoguery. He seems unable to criticise it think outside of the box of the ideologies he has believed in all his life, which takes me back to my original point. We all need to open our eyes

[pingu393]

biggbn said:

Two excellent posts thank you. His problem is that of intransigence brought about through idealoguery. He seems unable to criticise it think outside of the box of the ideologies he has believed in all his life, which takes me back to my original point. We all need to open our eyes

I think his problem is the same problem I had until I was in my twenties / thirties. It is a misunderstanding of "principles". I thought that it was hypocritical and against my principles to change my mind and support a view that was different to my original stance.

He is still thinking like this in his late sixties.

It is worrying to think that someone who formed their world view in their teens / twenties has not changed ANY of those views by the time they are in their late sixties.

It's more worrying to think that person could be the next prime minister.

[biggbn]

pingu393 said:

I think his problem is the same problem I had until I was in my twenties / thirties. It is a misunderstanding of "principles". I thought that it was hypocritical and against my principles to change my mind and support a view that was different to my original stance.

He is still thinking like this in his late sixties.

It is worrying to think that someone who formed their world view in their teens / twenties has not changed ANY of those views by the time they are in their late sixties.

It's more worrying to think that person could be the next prime minister.

As I have quoted before, Bertrand Russell was once asked if he would die for his views...oh no dear boy, I might change my mind, was his answer. Nothing more frightening than a closed mind.

[Hereward]

biggbn said:

As I have quoted before, Bertrand Russell was once asked if he would die for his views...oh no dear boy, I might change my mind, was his answer. Nothing more frightening than a closed mind.

This is another of my concerns with the Marxist lot; they are so utterly convinced of their ideology that they will plow on and on regardless of the pain caused, under the mantra "The end justifies the means".

At least the Conservatives have the decency to perform a good old U-turn when it transpires their bright ideas haven't gone down so well!

[biggbn]

Hereward said:

This is another of my concerns with the Marxist lot; they are so utterly convinced of their ideology that they will plow on and on regardless of the pain caused, under the mantra "The end justifies the means".

At least the Conservatives have the decency to perform a good old U-turn when it transpires their bright ideas haven't gone down so well!

It is interesting to consider, it takes time to implement change and people don't like change. I am of the left and have huge respect for Marx work from a philosophical emancipatory perspective, not as a one size fits all panacea for a society that in no way resembles the society Marx wrote about. If old Karl was alive today, does anyone think he would write the same thesis? Of course not. I believe in a socialist society and I do not see that and capitalism as mutually exclusive. Capitalism is THE eternal strategy, it will always adapt, split, continue...it just needs to be controlled by society not control society. I would argue much of Europe, UK included, operate successful socialist/capitalist hybrid economies and care systems, but there is always room for improvement. Unbridled socialism leads to dictatorship and stalinism, unbridled capitalist leads to a post modern gilliamesque nightmare...america???

[loafer123]

biggbn said:

It is interesting to consider, it takes time to implement change and people don't like change. I am of the left and have huge respect for Marx work from a philosophical emancipatory perspective, not as a one size fits all panacea for a society that in no way resembles the society Marx wrote about. If old Karl was alive today, does anyone think he would write the same thesis? Of course not. I believe in a socialist society and I do not see that and capitalism as mutually exclusive. Capitalism is THE eternal strategy, it will always adapt, split, continue...it just needs to be controlled by society not control society. I would argue much of Europe, UK included, operate successful socialist/capitalist hybrid economies and care systems, but there is always room for improvement. Unbridled socialism leads to dictatorship and stalinism, unbridled capitalist leads to a post modern gilliamesque nightmare...america???

Ignoring who pays it for a moment, as a socialist, what do you think the right tax take is as a percentage of GDP?

[biggbn]

loafer123 said:

Ignoring who pays it for a moment, as a socialist, what do you think the right tax take is as a percentage of GDP?

I freely admit to being an idealist man, am not an economist. I do believe in rewarding excellence and I do believe in providing for the vulnerable and those unable to look after themselves, I see no contradiction in those views. I am self employed, one man band, and pay my taxes year in year out. Do I get angry at tax avoidance schemes etc? Yes. Is there a way to tighten things up,
? I dont know. I am happy to debate things within my ability, but I do not have enough knowledge of economics to debate in that subject, pragmatically, because I dont have to. Sorry if this does not help you, but we seem to 'paying'for care, education, transport, energy all over Europe in state funded projects? Unless you believe the countries that provide such services are fiscally bankrupt if morally rich?? Capitalism can line the pockets of the individual and the state and the state can look after the individual and capitalism...

[loafer123]

biggbn said:

loafer123 said:

Ignoring who pays it for a moment, as a socialist, what do you think the right tax take is as a percentage of GDP?

I freely admit to being an idealist man, am not an economist. I do believe in rewarding excellence and I do believe in providing for the vulnerable and those unable to look after themselves, I see no contradiction in those views. I am self employed, one man band, and pay my taxes year in year out. Do I get angry at tax avoidance schemes etc? Yes. Is there a way to tighten things up,
? I dont know. I am happy to debate things within my ability, but I do not have enough knowledge of economics to debate in that subject, pragmatically, because I dont have to. Sorry if this does not help you, but we seem to 'paying'for care, education, transport, energy all over Europe in state funded projects? Unless you believe the countries that provide such services are fiscally bankrupt if morally rich?? Capitalism can line the pockets of the individual and the state and the state can look after the individual and capitalism...

I think you read rather too much into my question, which was not trying to catch you out.

Our tax rate is roughly mid point in the OECD countries, which seems about right to me, and I struggle to see where we are spending too much, so I was wondering whether your view, as a left leaning guy, was to tax more and spend more, and if so, by how much.

We can’t do the deficit thing, so generous welfare like France or Sweden would have to come from taxes, yet if those are on corporates, they will invest less and employ less people.

It is a really difficult subject. I think someone did a game based on tax rate and allocation of funds which was fun and informative on how feedback loops are created.

[BlackLabel]

Even when they're trying to be nice to the Jewish community Labour can't get it right.

[jakesmith]

biggbn said:

Do you think corbyn is an antisemite? Genuinely interested. I don't think he has acted quickly enough when the problem has arisen but CAN understand his initial unwillingness to adopt the ihra definition of antisemitism as it does seem to heavily preclude any criticism of the Jewish state or it's actions, as I understand it, although I am prepared to be corrected on that. I don't think he is an antisemite, I just don't think he is a very good leader.

I must point out Jake, your point about this being a thread about corbyn, so indirectly about labour is valid...yet many, yourself included as I remember, did nothing but mention labour antisemitism in the thread I started about Tory islamaphobia allegations...the goose/gander sauce equation seems unfairly tilted on this occasion?

Anyhow, just in from work, managed not to get hurt or hurt anyone so good shift. Off to kip, have a great day, Gbn

Biggbn I have a lot of respect for your open minded and convivial debating style

Having reflected, I don’t think I can put it much better than AstonZaggato

Corbyn may or may not hate Jews, but his approach to related topics has enabled hatred of Jews to flourish. He has then been grossly negligent in addressing it and has been all about words but not actions. It actually breaks my heart to think that this hatred is growing again so soon after the holocaust

It is being done in Corbyn’s name as has been shown on here so many times and visible in for example the comments in more left leaning publications or pro Labour / Corbyn Facebook pages

And all because he subscribes to an idiotic ideology that has never succeeded in any of the countries it has been tried in and has only brought about dire economic consequences, brutal suppression, the dismantling of democracy, and the deaths of millions of people.

[biggbn]

loafer123 said:

I think you read rather too much into my question, which was not trying to catch you out.

Our tax rate is roughly mid point in the OECD countries, which seems about right to me, and I struggle to see where we are spending too much, so I was wondering whether your view, as a left leaning guy, was to tax more and spend more, and if so, by how much.

We can’t do the deficit thing, so generous welfare like France or Sweden would have to come from taxes, yet if those are on corporates, they will invest less and employ less people.

It is a really difficult subject. I think someone did a game based on tax rate and allocation of funds which was fun and informative on how feedback loops are created.

Thanks for this post man, nice to talk to someone who remains civilised on PH!!

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

Biggbn I have a lot of respect for your open minded and convivial debating style

Having reflected, I don’t think I can put it much better than AstonZaggato

Corbyn may or may not hate Jews, but his approach to related topics has enabled hatred of Jews to flourish. He has then been grossly negligent in addressing it and has been all about words but not actions. It actually breaks my heart to think that this hatred is growing again so soon after the holocaust

It is being done in Corbyn’s name as has been shown on here so many times and visible in for example the comments in more left leaning publications or pro Labour / Corbyn Facebook pages

And all because he subscribes to an idiotic ideology that has never succeeded in any of the countries it has been tried in and has only brought about dire economic consequences, brutal suppression, the dismantling of democracy, and the deaths of millions of people.

Thanks for getting back to me, your thoughts broadly mirror mine although I have more faith in modern socialism, as outlined in another post. I don't think corbyn is an antisemite, he's just not a very strong, dynamic leader. He moves at the pace of molasses and has proven to be an ideologue I would suggest. If I had to vote labour or Tory I would vote labour but my vote will more likely go to the greens or not be cast as all. I wouldn't support a team that can't play football, why should I support any of the current bunch..

[loafer123]

biggbn said:

Thanks for this post man, nice to talk to someone who remains civilised on PH!!

You are very welcome.

FWIW, I think the tax take is about right, but a bit light for corporates versus individuals.

[djc206]

biggbn said:

jakesmith said:

Biggbn I have a lot of respect for your open minded and convivial debating style

Having reflected, I don’t think I can put it much better than AstonZaggato

Corbyn may or may not hate Jews, but his approach to related topics has enabled hatred of Jews to flourish. He has then been grossly negligent in addressing it and has been all about words but not actions. It actually breaks my heart to think that this hatred is growing again so soon after the holocaust

It is being done in Corbyn’s name as has been shown on here so many times and visible in for example the comments in more left leaning publications or pro Labour / Corbyn Facebook pages

And all because he subscribes to an idiotic ideology that has never succeeded in any of the countries it has been tried in and has only brought about dire economic consequences, brutal suppression, the dismantling of democracy, and the deaths of millions of people.

Thanks for getting back to me, your thoughts broadly mirror mine although I have more faith in modern socialism, as outlined in another post. I don't think corbyn is an antisemite, he's just not a very strong, dynamic leader. He moves at the pace of molasses and has proven to be an ideologue I would suggest. If I had to vote labour or Tory I would vote labour but my vote will more likely go to the greens or not be cast as all. I wouldn't support a team that can't play football, why should I support any of the current bunch..

Do you think Corbyns socialism is a modern interpretation or do you think his PR guys have told him to paint it as such? If you know his history you’ll know he’s never been a modern socialist at heart. McDonnell being in the position he’s in would also support the idea that Corbyn still favours the socialism that he fell in love with 40+ years ago. A destructive form, a form as others have pointed out has failed every single time it’s been attempted.

[jakesmith]

djc206 said:

Do you think Corbyns socialism is a modern interpretation or do you think his PR guys have told him to paint it as such? If you know his history you’ll know he’s never been a modern socialist at heart. McDonnell being in the position he’s in would also support the idea that Corbyn still favours the socialism that he fell in love with 40+ years ago. A destructive form, a form as others have pointed out has failed every single time it’s been attempted.

I believe he is a Trotskyist Marxist and believes in a continuous state of revolution, which is why he aligns with so Many anti-western or anti-capitalist causes. He believes in disrupting and dismantling the upper and middle classes, private business, wealth, capitalism generally etc.

The havoc this could wreck could open the door to perpetuating his power and if not by some effort of the electorate, queen, army (the last 2 of which he will seek to remove / reduce if he comes to power), he will leave the U.K. economy decimated and will in some way have achieved his plan of equality by making everyone equally poor

[anonymous-user]

jakesmith said:

I believe he is a Trotskyist Marxist and believes in a continuous state of revolution, which is why he aligns with so Many anti-western or anti-capitalist causes. He believes in disrupting and dismantling the upper and middle classes, private business, wealth, capitalism generally etc.

The havoc this could wreck could open the door to perpetuating his power and if not by some effort of the electorate, queen, army (the last 2 of which he will seek to remove / reduce if he comes to power), he will leave the U.K. economy decimated and will in some way have achieved his plan of equality by making everyone equally poor

You Tories best get your act together then.
You are making it happen.

[otolith]

Ape-x - has it occurred to you that some of those who think that the wilful blindness of some in the Labour movement to the complexity of the Palestinian-Israeli nightmare is the result of antisemitic feelings are also generally principled opponents of racism who wouldn’t piss on Tommy Robinson were he on fire?

[biggbn]

djc206 said:

Do you think Corbyns socialism is a modern interpretation or do you think his PR guys have told him to paint it as such? If you know his history you’ll know he’s never been a modern socialist at heart. McDonnell being in the position he’s in would also support the idea that Corbyn still favours the socialism that he fell in love with 40+ years ago. A destructive form, a form as others have pointed out has failed every single time it’s been attempted.

From what I have read it seemed a more modern interpretation, others views may differ. How many of you know that in his labour leadership pledges he had stuff about providing young entrepreneurs with start up loans...not very Marxist is it? Now, I'm not getting involved in this 'it has never worked before' because the kind of societal cultural socialism I believe in has been implemented in many thriving European countries and works to an extent in great Britain now. I do believe nhs should be state run, as should education, security, transport and energy. The state should build more quality housing, there should be better policing on the streets, our soldiers should never go into conflict with substandard equipment, our prisoners should be dealt with more efficiently utilising a holistic stare run set of rules. Apprenticeships should be subsidised and excellence rewarded....benefits? I would not give cash, I would give vouchers which could only be used for food, clothing or necessities...not alcohol. Not cigarettes. Not drugs.

See, I'm a confusing authoritarian libertarian hippy who walks softly, speaks mannerfully, but carries a big fkin stick. Just.. In...Case

[hidetheelephants]

The tax take is probably about right; where it comes from is more problematic and will require creative thinking and possibly international cooperation, but simply put corporations need to be paying their way. For example in the 1970s US corporations paid ~20%, these days it's around 2%. This is not sustainable.