Labour and Rape

[nikaiyo2]

The main item on PM tonight was Bex Bailey and her allegations of rape.

Now I get why one might complain to the Labour Party about inappropriate behaviour at an event. An unwanted touch or inappropriate text I can see why you would consider it an HR matter and seek an internal solution.

Is rape not on another level? Is it not clearly a criminal matter, that should be dealt with by the police?

I can get wanting to protect the party but surely this is a new level of closing ranks. It’s rape FFS.

[Nath911t]

I'm confused why it wasn't reported to the Police and just the Labour party official?

Who are Labour to deal with something like this and not the Police? Or have I just read it wrong?

[Rovinghawk]

nikaiyo2 said:

It’s rape FFS.

No, it's alleged rape.

[Derek Smith]

nikaiyo2 said:

The main item on PM tonight was Bex Bailey and her allegations of rape.

Now I get why one might complain to the Labour Party about inappropriate behaviour at an event. An unwanted touch or inappropriate text I can see why you would consider it an HR matter and seek an internal solution.

Is rape not on another level? Is it not clearly a criminal matter, that should be dealt with by the police?

I can get wanting to protect the party but surely this is a new level of closing ranks. It’s rape FFS.

The police don't need the cooperation of a victim to pursue a suspected rape. However, it is difficult to prosecute without the cooperation of the victim. A year or so ago the CPS stated that if a rape victim did refuse to cooperate, they could be imprisoned. A few years ago a victim did refuse in court to testify and the judge threatened to imprison the victim for contempt.

I feel that one should not force a victim to give evidence of the crime, but there is the thought that if an offender gets away with such a serious crime once, they will go on to offend again.

I can't blame a victim for not wanting to proceed. Complain you've been burgled and everyone sympathises and tutts. Say you've been raped and there are those who want to treat such a report differently to any other crime and refuse to believe them. This despite the number of false burglaries easily exceeding the number of false reports of rape. On top of that, there's the invasive investigative procedures. They are bad enough, especially as they are normally immediately after the offence, but they are nothing compared to the legal procedures.

I think the imperative for the victim is to their own health. The pressure of being a victim of rape is tremendous. I see no reason for this woman to be forced to report the rape.

However, how do we know she has not reported it already to the police? We don't. If this happened in a situation where she and the bloke were alone then there's every chance that the CPS would not run it.

The number of rapes reported are a small percentage of those that occur.

[Peter911]

Derek Smith said:

The number of rapes reported are a small percentage of those that occur.

Is this a BBC statistic? I suppose it depends how you catagorise rape. In my day it was a man with a balaclava with a knife grabbing someone walking home alone late at night across an unlit park.

Nowadays it seems to be smiling at someone on a bus.

(Not making light of it, but some things do seem to be getting out of hand in the PC land)

[Derek Smith]

Peter911 said:

Derek Smith said:

The number of rapes reported are a small percentage of those that occur.

Is this a BBC statistic? I suppose it depends how you catagorise rape. In my day it was a man with a balaclava with a knife grabbing someone walking home alone late at night across an unlit park.

Nowadays it seems to be smiling at someone on a bus.

(Not making light of it, but some things do seem to be getting out of hand in the PC land)

I think you are making light of it.

I ran ID parades for Sussex for two years. I ran 2.7 parades for rape a week. That's a lot of rapes for just the two counties. I've seen women too terrified to walk along the ID suite for fear of seeing the offender. I've had one collapse for 7 minutes, another not be able to stand. However, there's no argument that the majority of rapes do not get reported. Not sure why you should bring the BBC into the argument, but I do hope they reported the findings of the many investigations regarding rape victims.

There can be no doubt that there are many more rapes than those reported to the police.

Rape is quite easily defined, and I would assume you know that it is penetration without consent.

[eldar]

Peter911 said:

Is this a BBC statistic? I suppose it depends how you catagorise rape. In my day it was a man with a balaclava with a knife grabbing someone walking home alone late at night across an unlit park.

Nowadays it seems to be smiling at someone on a bus.

(Not making light of it, but some things do seem to be getting out of hand in the PC land)

I fear you are making light of it on many levels. It isn't something to be trivialised.

[Rovinghawk]

Derek Smith said:

I ran 2.7 parades for rape a week. That's a lot of rapes for just the two counties.

No, it's a lot of alleged rapes.

Derek Smith said:

There can be no doubt that there are many more rapes than those reported to the police.

Whilst I believe you on the numbers I'd be pleased to see your evidence to support the statement. Your evidence would appear to be "because she said so". There can be doubt until you prove beyond doubt, which you have not done.

[anonymous-user]

Peter911 said:

Derek Smith said:

The number of rapes reported are a small percentage of those that occur.

Is this a BBC statistic? I suppose it depends how you catagorise rape. In my day it was a man with a balaclava with a knife grabbing someone walking home alone late at night across an unlit park.

Nowadays it seems to be smiling at someone on a bus.

(Not making light of it, but some things do seem to be getting out of hand in the PC land)

Rape is clearly defined in law.

Few years old, but this concludes there are many more occurring than reporting: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

[Rovinghawk]

La Liga said:

ape is clearly defined in law.

Few years old, but this concludes there are many more occurring than reporting:

Their use of the word 'offender' when they should have said 'suspect' or 'accused' indicates a bias.

If someone's guilty then by all means nail them to the floor but prior to conviction they are an innocent accused and it is an alleged crime. Presumption of guilt benefits nobody.

[Bigends]

La Liga said:

Peter911 said:

Derek Smith said:

The number of rapes reported are a small percentage of those that occur.

Is this a BBC statistic? I suppose it depends how you catagorise rape. In my day it was a man with a balaclava with a knife grabbing someone walking home alone late at night across an unlit park.

Nowadays it seems to be smiling at someone on a bus.

(Not making light of it, but some things do seem to be getting out of hand in the PC land)

Rape is clearly defined in law.

Few years old, but this concludes there are many more occurring than reporting: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

This report is nearly nine years old. There have been significant changes made in relation to the recording of rape since then. Back then, many rape allegations werent recorded until the officers dealing were satisfied that an offence had occured and even then, many werent recorded . Rapes are now recorded at first point of contact with Police either by the victim or by a third party in some cases. Police now record and then investigate rather than investigating before deciding whether or not to record.

Edited by Bigends on Tuesday 18th September 01:10

[hutchst]

Derek Smith said:

I think you are making light of it.

I ran ID parades for Sussex for two years. I ran 2.7 parades for rape a week. That's a lot of rapes for just the two counties. I've seen women too terrified to walk along the ID suite for fear of seeing the offender. I've had one collapse for 7 minutes, another not be able to stand. However, there's no argument that the majority of rapes do not get reported. Not sure why you should bring the BBC into the argument, but I do hope they reported the findings of the many investigations regarding rape victims.

There can be no doubt that there are many more rapes than those reported to the police.

Rape is quite easily defined, and I would assume you know that it is penetration without consent.

It's a difficult subject, I know. But how do you define consent? There are extreme limits, obviously, but there is a huge grey middle ground. Where, precisely, do you draw the line for a crime that has such far-reaching and life-changing consequences.

[hutchst]

Derek Smith said:

I think you are making light of it.

I ran ID parades for Sussex for two years. I ran 2.7 parades for rape a week. That's a lot of rapes for just the two counties. I've seen women too terrified to walk along the ID suite for fear of seeing the offender. I've had one collapse for 7 minutes, another not be able to stand. However, there's no argument that the majority of rapes do not get reported. Not sure why you should bring the BBC into the argument, but I do hope they reported the findings of the many investigations regarding rape victims.

There can be no doubt that there are many more rapes than those reported to the police.

Rape is quite easily defined, and I would assume you know that it is penetration without consent.

It's a difficult subject, I know. But how do you define consent? There are extreme limits, obviously, but there is a huge grey middle ground. Where, precisely, do you draw the line for a crime that has such far-reaching and life-changing consequences.

[blearyeyedboy]

Rovinghawk said:

Their use of the word 'offender' when they should have said 'suspect' or 'accused' indicates a bias.

I think you should read that sentence again.

Derek Smith said:

I've seen women too terrified to walk along the ID suite for fear of seeing the offender.

I think his use of "offender" is accurate. Women who've been through that sort of ordeal won't be afraid of a "suspect"; they will be afraid of the bloke who put them through such a torrid experience. The word "offender" is an accurate one.

You may disagree, but I wonder instead if it's your reply that shows bias. I find it bizarre that no one seems to comment on whether a car was really stolen or whether someone was really mugged, but we seem to question whether rapes took place very often indeed, and far too often in my opinion.

[anonymous-user]

Rovinghawk said:

nikaiyo2 said:

It’s rape FFS.

No, it's alleged rape.

Yes, that’s why he said “her allegations”.

You seem oddly keen to promote the innocence of someone alleged to be a rapist. It’s not as if the concept of innocent until proven guilty is unusual or not generally known.

Are you so keen to promote this concept with regard to all and any criminal allegations?

[anonymous-user]

Peter911 said:

Derek Smith said:

The number of rapes reported are a small percentage of those that occur.

Is this a BBC statistic? I suppose it depends how you catagorise rape. In my day it was a man with a balaclava with a knife grabbing someone walking home alone late at night across an unlit park.

Nowadays it seems to be smiling at someone on a bus.

(Not making light of it, but some things do seem to be getting out of hand in the PC land)

Rather a disturbing post if your view is that rape can only take place if a balaclava and knife are involved. “In my day” means what exactly?

[Supercilious Sid]

Roman Rhodes said:

Yes, that’s why he said “her allegations”.

You seem oddly keen to promote the innocence of someone alleged to be a rapist. It’s not as if the concept of innocent until proven guilty is unusual or not generally known.

Are you so keen to promote this concept with regard to all and any criminal allegations?

Second guessing the motivation of the poster has no relevance to the discussion.

[anonymous-user]

Supercilious Sid said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Yes, that’s why he said “her allegations”.

You seem oddly keen to promote the innocence of someone alleged to be a rapist. It’s not as if the concept of innocent until proven guilty is unusual or not generally known.

Are you so keen to promote this concept with regard to all and any criminal allegations?

Second guessing the motivation of the poster has no relevance to the discussion.

If you’ve inferred something about guessing motivation then you’re mistaken.

Regarding the OP I’m not sure there’s much to add. I can’t see anything in the reporting which says the matter has been reported to the police - which does seem odd considering the person in question has ‘gone public’ regarding the alleged rape. I can only guess (and yes, this is guessing) that Bex Bailey has been advised that after 7 years and no physical evidence and witnesses to rely on the chances of a successful prosecution are negligible. Instead she seems to be using her own experience to highlight issues within the party, which the report confirms do exist.

[Derek Smith]

hutchst said:

It's a difficult subject, I know. But how do you define consent? There are extreme limits, obviously, but there is a huge grey middle ground. Where, precisely, do you draw the line for a crime that has such far-reaching and life-changing consequences.

It is true that the definition of consent has changed over the years, but that's hardly unknown in legal circles. It's what happens. One instance that sticks in my mind was a force pursuing a drugs offence on the hope of defining a field as premises. How we all shook our heads in disbelief.

Consent: ask yourself whether a trafficked woman in a brothel gives consent to penetration. She has no alternative, she is kept imprisoned and is within the definition of a slave. These women are penetrated a number of times each evening. One on TV said 'more than a dozen times' each day. Each one a rape. 12 x 7 x 52 is a lot of rapes that go unreported each year. There are sometimes dozens of women being raped day in and day out in some places.

Even when the women are freed the rapes are not reported (at least they weren't in my time). The number of such brothels is unknown but then I know two forces that have joined together to fight this horror. So that's two officers. We'll never know the full extent but there is ample evidence of lots and lots of them.

It is not an allegation of multiple rapes, it is multiple rapes. There is no consent.

There are other aspects to consent which are less obvious. A husband who runs his wife. Hardly unknown, and there's no bother as to whether the wife consents.

Do prostitutes generally consent? That's open for a bigger discussion and too deep for me and a PH thread I think.

Rape is under-reported. Only an idiot would say otherwise. Or the prejudiced of course. The only question is by how much and I reckon the true figures would shock most people.

[otherman]

blearyeyedboy said:

I find it bizarre that no one seems to comment on whether a car was really stolen or whether someone was really mugged, but we seem to question whether rapes took place very often indeed, and far too often in my opinion.

There's a big difference though, is why they're treated differently. If a car is stolen, there's some evidence in the form of a missing car, and the rectification is to get another car. With rape, evidence can be difficult, and the rectification is to jail someone. We can't give people the power to jail whoever they want, because some people abuse that power.