Take-up of MMR vaccine falls for fourth year in a row.
Discussion
Thanks for that.
Had a quick look but that graph does not correlate with the measles rates in the ONS data I have found (having to ignore causation for obvious reasons at this juncture). I am going to assume the ONS data is the most accurate at this stage unless you have something else?
And do you have the percentage of the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the ONS measles data by any chance? Need that too of course for fairly obvious reasons.
Had a quick look but that graph does not correlate with the measles rates in the ONS data I have found (having to ignore causation for obvious reasons at this juncture). I am going to assume the ONS data is the most accurate at this stage unless you have something else?
And do you have the percentage of the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the ONS measles data by any chance? Need that too of course for fairly obvious reasons.
Declined slightly is how I would put that. I'd also be interested to know the uncertainty in terms of those numbers, and if the decline is real or potentially just part of the uncertainty in survey. Also what is the % that cannot have the vaccinations due to health reasons? For example if that is say 5% then it's pretty decent uptake overall. If it's 0.5% then there is a big gap somewhere that doesn't seem to get broken. Is this some kind of religious thing, some kind of cultural thing, just there is that many anti-vac people?
Jasandjules said:
Thanks for that.
Had a quick look but that graph does not correlate with the measles rates in the ONS data I have found (having to ignore causation for obvious reasons at this juncture). I am going to assume the ONS data is the most accurate at this stage unless you have something else?
And do you have the percentage of the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the ONS measles data by any chance? Need that too of course for fairly obvious reasons.
Just to clarify, are you seriously trying to establish whether vaccines are effective?Had a quick look but that graph does not correlate with the measles rates in the ONS data I have found (having to ignore causation for obvious reasons at this juncture). I am going to assume the ONS data is the most accurate at this stage unless you have something else?
And do you have the percentage of the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the ONS measles data by any chance? Need that too of course for fairly obvious reasons.
I mean, bloody hell.
J and J, only the easily led and other idiots think there is any question what so ever of the efficacy of vaccines.
Do you have any statistical training? Do you know anything at all about medicine?
If not what are you even looking for this data?
You need to step away from the edge right now. (
)
Do you have any statistical training? Do you know anything at all about medicine?
If not what are you even looking for this data?
You need to step away from the edge right now. (
)Moonhawk said:
How about this:
http://www.qualitywatch.org.uk/indicator/populatio...
These charts show that the uptake of all of the vaccines listed have been steadily declining since 2013/14. They are all below the world health target of 95% coverage, with the exception of DTap (2nd birthday) - which hit 95% in 2016/17 (and if the trend has continued - is likely also below that level by now).
Rather depressing graph. http://www.qualitywatch.org.uk/indicator/populatio...
These charts show that the uptake of all of the vaccines listed have been steadily declining since 2013/14. They are all below the world health target of 95% coverage, with the exception of DTap (2nd birthday) - which hit 95% in 2016/17 (and if the trend has continued - is likely also below that level by now).
That is a very interesting website. I particularly liked the graphs showing the UK uptake compared to other countries and indeed when England is compared to wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. I do wonder whether the uptake is anything to do with the earlier scare stories as it did eventually get back above the 95% target or other factors bearing in mind that it seems the uptake for all vaccinations in England is lower.
Jasandjules said:
To be clear, are you saying that children with HIV, Hep A, Heb B and measles, mumps etc should be allowed to attend school but those who have not been vaccinated but not infected should not?
And you are saying that Muslims ought not be allowed to attend school? That is some serious implication.
Must be fun living under a bridge. And you are saying that Muslims ought not be allowed to attend school? That is some serious implication.
Edited by Jasandjules on Monday 24th September 17:10
Moonhawk said:
Lazadude said:
My point, was the NHS say the vaccine definitely does not cause a reaction......
Do they? Can you cite an example of this because as far as I can tell - the NHS are open about the potential side effects, even publishing them on their website:https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/mmr-sid...
Inconsistent message at best but I can see how that would affect worried new mums, especially as they have more of a bond with the practice nurse/GP then a random webpage.
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you guys, you would be stupid to not vaccinate. There's just lots of very stupid people around. (If you butcher statistics..) 1 in 2 of the population are below average intelligence...
Perhaps an obvious thing to think but maybe the success of vaccine programs is part of the cause of the malaise? How many people, who are now having their first child, have had a serious disease? How many kids do you see with lifelong complications due to polio? Scarred by smallpox?
I’m in my mid-40s and can remember darkened rooms when me and my brother had measles - he had it in his eyes at the age of 3. I can vividly remember the scary, zany, bright, weird dreams brought on by the huge fever from having a bad dose of chicken pox at the age of 9 - and I’ve still got scars on my face from the spots.
I wouldn’t want my kids to go through that, and be at risk from complications of the disease, and maybe pass it on to weaker kids, and I don’t understand the mentality of anyone who does.
We have huge pockets of anti-vaccination bods here on Australia too, largely in wealthy or utopian communities. But if you want your child to go to a registered childcare centre, and be eligible for any rebate on the fees, your child must be up-to-date with vaccinations. It’s not perfect, but it’s a start. Why the hell would you take a chance with your own child’s life??
I’m in my mid-40s and can remember darkened rooms when me and my brother had measles - he had it in his eyes at the age of 3. I can vividly remember the scary, zany, bright, weird dreams brought on by the huge fever from having a bad dose of chicken pox at the age of 9 - and I’ve still got scars on my face from the spots.
I wouldn’t want my kids to go through that, and be at risk from complications of the disease, and maybe pass it on to weaker kids, and I don’t understand the mentality of anyone who does.
We have huge pockets of anti-vaccination bods here on Australia too, largely in wealthy or utopian communities. But if you want your child to go to a registered childcare centre, and be eligible for any rebate on the fees, your child must be up-to-date with vaccinations. It’s not perfect, but it’s a start. Why the hell would you take a chance with your own child’s life??
durbster said:
Jasandjules said:
Thanks for that.
Had a quick look but that graph does not correlate with the measles rates in the ONS data I have found (having to ignore causation for obvious reasons at this juncture). I am going to assume the ONS data is the most accurate at this stage unless you have something else?
And do you have the percentage of the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the ONS measles data by any chance? Need that too of course for fairly obvious reasons.
Just to clarify, are you seriously trying to establish whether vaccines are effective?Had a quick look but that graph does not correlate with the measles rates in the ONS data I have found (having to ignore causation for obvious reasons at this juncture). I am going to assume the ONS data is the most accurate at this stage unless you have something else?
And do you have the percentage of the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the ONS measles data by any chance? Need that too of course for fairly obvious reasons.
I mean, bloody hell.
Hayek said:
Who gets to decide what is or is not a good reason? Generally people would like their children vaccinated. Thanks to a lot of noise that amounted to nothing there is misplaced distrust in a certain vaccine, but people are entitled to be concerned rightly or wrongly. If it's government policy to make sure as many as possible are vaccinated then it should do a better job at PERSUADING people of the safety of the MMR and/or offer the seperate injections.
If we didn't have a nationalised health service this would be less of an issue because the market would respond to what people want.
ETA: Making something manditory will probably increase the opposition to it.
Who gets to decide what is or is not a good reason? The government.If we didn't have a nationalised health service this would be less of an issue because the market would respond to what people want.
ETA: Making something manditory will probably increase the opposition to it.
If I posted what you just did, but replaced vaccinations with drink driving related items I'd be laughed out, yet it is little different.
Example said:
Generally people would like their children vaccinated drivers sober. Thanks to a lot of noise that amounted to nothing there is misplaced distrust in a certain vaccine driving sober, but people are entitled to be concerned rightly or wrongly. If it's government policy to make sure as many as possible are vaccinated not drink driving then it should do a better job at PERSUADING people of the safety of the MMR and/or offer the seperate injections. not driving after drinking
Why is it little different? You're creating a clear danger to your child and to others. That is irresponsible and frankly should be met with charges, not some hand holding "oh everyones choices matter" crap.durbster said:
Just to clarify, are you seriously trying to establish whether vaccines are effective?
I mean, bloody hell.
I am seeking to ascertain whether the assertions made hold water. Thus far they do not. The data does not support the contentions made and there appears to be no correlation let alone causation. That is what I am trying to work out - because we need the vaccinated vs unvaccinated in the disease incidence figures to drill down into the information and confirm if what moonhawk said was correct and indeed what the paper said (though I tend not to rely upon newspapers for evidence).I mean, bloody hell.
Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
Jasandjules said:
I am seeking to ascertain whether the assertions made hold water. Thus far they do not. The data does not support the contentions made and there appears to be no correlation let alone causation. That is what I am trying to work out - because we need the vaccinated vs unvaccinated in the disease incidence figures to drill down into the information and confirm if what moonhawk said was correct and indeed what the paper said (though I tend not to rely upon newspapers for evidence).
Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
Look at rural Africa: fewer plumbers, massive vaccine success rates.Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
durbster said:
Jasandjules said:
I am seeking to ascertain whether the assertions made hold water. Thus far they do not. The data does not support the contentions made and there appears to be no correlation let alone causation. That is what I am trying to work out - because we need the vaccinated vs unvaccinated in the disease incidence figures to drill down into the information and confirm if what moonhawk said was correct and indeed what the paper said (though I tend not to rely upon newspapers for evidence).
Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
Look at rural Africa: fewer plumbers, massive vaccine success rates.Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
Jasandjules said:
I am seeking to ascertain whether the assertions made hold water. Thus far they do not. The data does not support the contentions made and there appears to be no correlation let alone causation. That is what I am trying to work out - because we need the vaccinated vs unvaccinated in the disease incidence figures to drill down into the information and confirm if what moonhawk said was correct and indeed what the paper said (though I tend not to rely upon newspapers for evidence).
Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
Do you think during the colonisation of the Americas the native Americans would have benefited more from smallpox vaccinations or sewers and plumbing?Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
Jasandjules said:
Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
Why are you presenting it as if you have had some kind of revelation and are suddenly "asking questions"? Everyone who's been on here for a while knows that, seemingly without fail, you can be trusted to support fringe bullsAnd that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
Have you got causation then? If so, please post so I can read.
t over science. Vaccines work. About 5 seconds on google scholar will provide you with more vaccine effectiveness studies than you could ever read.hairykrishna said:
Why are you presenting it as if you have had some kind of revelation and are suddenly "asking questions"? Everyone who's been on here for a while knows that, seemingly without fail, you can be trusted to support fringe bullst over science. Vaccines work. About 5 seconds on google scholar will provide you with more vaccine effectiveness studies than you could ever read.
Chances are I have far more vaccines than you actually, because I have to go privately to a dive doctor to get them and that is every few years.t over science. Vaccines work. About 5 seconds on google scholar will provide you with more vaccine effectiveness studies than you could ever read.
_dobbo_ said:
Why bother if they don't work? Just make sure you drink clean water and you'll be fine?
Harsh. Always good to visit;http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/
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