Don't Mention the War. Or Churchill.

[Hoofy]

amusingduck said:

Academic Christina Sommers wrote: “Please don’t apologize. Winston Churchill, like all of us, had serious human failings. But unlike most of us—he possessed genuine greatness. And that greatness may have saved freedom & democracy. Ask the Twitter scolds to name a hero or heroine who didn’t have serious flaws.”


Nail -> Head.

She's right. The baying idiots probably wear Che Guevara t-shirts, thinking he's some kind of nice lefty hero of the people (reality is that he was responsible for mass torture).

Next time you see someone wearing a Che t-shirt, point at it and say, "I liked the way he used torture and murder to overcome his enemy."

Edited by Hoofy on Tuesday 9th October 09:22

[XCP]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Hitler yet. Standards are slipping.

[Smiler.]

XCP said:

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Hitler yet. Standards are slipping.

[Eric Mc]

And don't forget that iconic image of Ché that adorned so many t-shirts and bedroom walls in the late 1960s and early 1970s was painted by an Irishman (Jim Fitzpatrick) -



People who are heroes to some are often the complete opposite to others.

[Mrr T]

NewbishDelight said:

Eric Mc said:

Churchill is not a hero to everybody.

Not the Germans, for a start.

I suspected he is not well liked by the Turks and the ANZAC as well.

Edited by Mrr T on Tuesday 9th October 12:01

[Jonesy23]

The silly sod got a load of outraged replies from people in India who have a particular view on history. The Churchill line is a recent politically driven local narrative; other people might blame the Japanese, the weather, crop failure and a particularly stty local economy for what happened.

The apology was a mistake. That he included 'we are all Americans' in it just revealed the depths of stupidity and ignorance behind that mistake.

[g3org3y]

Zetec-S said:

amusingduck said:

Academic Christina Sommers wrote: “Please don’t apologize. Winston Churchill, like all of us, had serious human failings. But unlike most of us—he possessed genuine greatness. And that greatness may have saved freedom & democracy. Ask the Twitter scolds to name a hero or heroine who didn’t have serious flaws.”


Nail -> Head.

The Nazi's weren't defeated by the Allies being "nice".

They should have sent the Nazis 'trigger warnings' before landing on the beaches at Normandy.

[Eric Mc]

g3org3y said:

They should have sent the Nazis 'trigger warnings' before landing on the beaches at Normandy.

They did. The RAF and the USAAF dropped hundreds of thousands if not millions of leaflets into Occupied Europe and Germany during the course of the war.

[Zetec-S]

Eric Mc said:

Zetec-S said:

I doubt it.

It appears he made his original comment, got shouted down by the social media mob and had to retract/apologise to keep the professionally offended happy.

Churchill is not a hero to everybody.

And?

Back to the context of the original post - Kelly originally quoted Churchill, and whilst that doesn't mean he necessarily views him as a hero, it would suggest he harbours/harboured no feelings of resentment. Which would suggest that your Irish-American link is irrelevant in this case.

Maybe he wasn't aware of everything Churchill did or said, but the fact remains he only apologised after the social media mob came baying and effectively forced him to backtrack.

[Uncle John]

Madness.

You should only apologise if you have done something wrong.

This chap has done nothing wrong.

[anonymous-user]

Dog Star said:

And don't even start me on the beta cuck males that hang out demonstrating with feminists or whites hanging out at "black lives matter" demos.

Edited by Dog Star on Tuesday 9th October 08:32

I always assumed the males were there to get lucky with the protesters.

[Eric Mc]

Zetec-S said:

And?

Back to the context of the original post - Kelly originally quoted Churchill, and whilst that doesn't mean he necessarily views him as a hero, it would suggest he harbours/harboured no feelings of resentment. Which would suggest that your Irish-American link is irrelevant in this case.

Maybe he wasn't aware of everything Churchill did or said, but the fact remains he only apologised after the social media mob came baying and effectively forced him to backtrack.

And why did he feel the need to apologise so quickly? He could very well already harbour doubts regarding Churchill's "hero status".

I doubt if Jeremy Clarkson would have apologised so rapidly.

For those interested in Churchill's life and personality, Radio 4 is currently broadcasting a biography of him each morning at 9.45 am. You can catch up with Monday and Tuesday's episodes on the iPlayer.

[aeropilot]

Hoofy said:

amusingduck said:

Academic Christina Sommers wrote: “Please don’t apologize. Winston Churchill, like all of us, had serious human failings. But unlike most of us—he possessed genuine greatness. And that greatness may have saved freedom & democracy. Ask the Twitter scolds to name a hero or heroine who didn’t have serious flaws.”


Nail -> Head.

She's right. The baying idiots probably wear Che Guevara t-shirts, thinking he's some kind of nice lefty hero of the people (reality is that he was responsible for mass torture).

Next time you see someone wearing a Che t-shirt, point at it and say, "I liked the way he used torture and murder to overcome his enemy."

That's not half as perplexing as a decade or so ago, seeing many young black people walking around wearing trendy 'Von Dutch' logo clothing, clearly having no idea what, or rather who Von Dutch was, and err shall we say, some of the views he had about certain people.
Makes me wonder what the talented old nutter would have made of that?

[Zetec-S]

Eric Mc said:

And why did he feel the need to apologise so quickly? He could very well already harbour doubts regarding Churchill's "hero status".

Ummm, did you actually read what Scott Kelly originally tweeted?

Scott Kelly said:

One of the greatest leaders of modern times, Sir Winston Churchill said, “in victory, magnanimity.” I guess those days are over.

Doesn't seem like he was harbouring doubts to me.

Eric Mc said:

I doubt if Jeremy Clarkson would have apologised so rapidly.

Christ, talk about going off at a tangent. What's JC got to do with this?

Edited by Zetec-S on Tuesday 9th October 10:55

[Atomic12C]

Well I, like many other British (along with many other western allies), view him as a hero and as a iconic leader.
His positive effect outweighs his negative in my opinion and I think the 'offended brigade' should consider that many things in the real world are about balance.

[Hoofy]

Jonesy23 said:

the Japanese

Don't you mention the Japanese. They wiped out half my family back in 1942! *goes to smash up his Seiko watch*

[optimal909]

Atomic12C said:

Well I, like many other British (along with many other western allies), view him as a hero and as a iconic leader.
His positive effect outweighs his negative in my opinion and I think the 'offended brigade' should consider that many things in the real world are about balance.

He is a hero for the Brits, for obvious reasons, and I respect it.
IMHO he committed genocide with the bombing of Dresden that served no sound strategic purpose.

But we are living in an age when Kim Jong Un is a honorable leader, according to the US President, so I would not go very far arguing about Churchill.

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Eric Mc said:

Kelly is of Irish-American immigrant descent. Many older Irish or older Irish-Americans harbour a bit of a grudge against British Imperialism - of which Churchill was a strong advocate.

Before Pearl Harbor, the Irish-American contingent in American politics was strongly against the US getting involved in the war. They were so vociferous that on occasions Roosevelt had to slap some Irish-American Senators and Congressmen down for making anti-British and seemingly pro-Fascist comments. Even the US Ambassodor - Joe Kennedy (an Irish-American and JFK's dad) was pretty anti-British and no friend of Churchill.

Maybe a bit of that was behind what he said.

No. Their just fascists, period.

[JagLover]

optimal909 said:

He is a hero for the Brits, for obvious reasons, and I respect it.
IMHO he committed genocide with the bombing of Dresden that served no sound strategic purpose.

But we are living in an age when Kim Jong Un is a honorable leader, according to the US President, so I would not go very far arguing about Churchill.

Excuse me "genocide"

Strategic bombing of enemy cities and industries was regarded as a valid method of warfare in WW2 and was started by the Germans.

The bombing of Warsaw, Rotterdam and indeed London proceeded the allied bombing campaign in Germany.

As for serving "no strategic purpose" its aim was to cause the surrender of Germany and, given that each day the war was prolonged thousands of slave labourers, Jews and POW died in German captivity many would consider that a sound strategic aim.

I have little patience for those who consider Germans the "victims" of WW2 when they turned the continent into a charnel house.

[percymk4]

optimal909 said:

IMHO he committed genocide with the bombing of Dresden that served no sound strategic purpose.

Its not genocide by bombing an enemy city which holds strategic military value to the enemy. Munitions and other military materiel were produced there, never mind the communication and rail links. It was a legitimate target during total war and the casualties that people often cite are hugely exaggerated.